Tag Teaming Vehicles - using the right one
 

Hey all!

I am a big believer in using the right tool for the right job.

If you need to commute back and forth many miles by yourself, an economy car is your best bet.

If you need to haul things, a pickup truck would be better, but not one that is overkill.

If you have special things you want to do with a vehicle, but only on rare occasions, maybe renting or borrowing from a friend would be best.

Since most families have more than one car, doesn't it make sense for those two vehicles to be very different from one another, so that whichever is more advantageous could be used?


I am thinking that for my wife and I, the ideal car transportation might be an inexpensive electric car for local trips and communting and a small diesel pickup truck.

The truck would be used for moving mulch and building supplies, transporting the motorcycle, pulling the camping trailer, and longer range trips. The diesel engine could be run on biodiesel or converted to veggie oil.

Each of the vehicles would compliment the other.

Contrast this to a large SUV, which is designed to be "all things to all people". It can do a lot of things, but suffers from higher initial cost, and constantly carrying more weight and fuel usage.

I saw a diesel Rabbit pickup for sale a while back cheap! Got gobbled up by someone else way too fast! I didn't even have a chance of getting it!

Any other comments on "using the right vehicle"?

Quite true Frank Lee.

I myself used this logic when I shopped for my Matrix I picked up this past spring. We previously had a 1996 Toyota Tercel that my wife drove. Anticipating greater spacial needs (kids) and karting around our 2 door car loving friends, we went with the Matrix. The traceoff has been about 3-4 mpg less, tons more space, and a great car to kart people around in. I have the Paseo around as my daily drive since I have a 35 mile one way commute to deal with. Its 40+ mpg is tolerable. I'd love an Insight, however, its just not in the budget. These two cars get pretty good mileage (amazing mileage to most), and suit every need we've ever had. I can't imagine buying something bigger and more wasteful.

This is why we own a bunch of Hatchbacks, I haul tools around most of the time, have hauled 8 foot long lumber, a compleat futon and frame, 2 bicycles, and all kinds of other things all with the hatch closed!
I also have a trailer hitch and feel ok towing small trailers, the largest being a light weight 16 foot long flat bed at about 20mph.
when I need to haul more lumber or other stuff that a large truck is needed I barrow one from my parents or boss, in nice weather I get the scooter or motorcycle out.

I think my ideal lineup would be a big diesel pickup@20-30mpg on WVO, my smaller gas pickup@35-45mpg, my hatchback@70-90mpg on WVO, my 4d gas sedan@40-50mpg, another smaller 4d gas sedan@60-70mpg, a tube frame twin engine'd vehicle@80-100mpg on WVO, a small and large displacement motorcycle, some bicycles.... Er...

I think I have a problem. :o

Don't forget the gigantic garage! :D

The idea of the right tool for the job is completely logical until you realize that for each additional “tool” you are signing up for another $500/mo payment. Sure, an Insight/Prius for the daily commute, a F350 for hauling stuff and a van for hauling the tribe makes perfect sense but if you were wealthy to carry $2,000 in vehicle payments, why worry? Going 'used' only reduces the magnitude. but not the general principle.

The economically elegant solution is the compromise vehicle that fulfills all the common missions. Maybe my parents weren’t wrong. The family chromium bulldozer – A Chevy Impala – hauled the tribe, pulled a good –sized trailer, and was an acceptable commuter. All on one payment.

They used to call that all-purpose vehicle a station wagon.

I still think hatchbacks are one of the THE BEST all-purpose vehicles out there!

There is a diminishing return on owning more vehicles. Having 10 different vehicles to do 10 different things is NOT the way to go.

I was mostly thinking that most people have more than one vehicle, so why not have ones that compliment each other?



PS: I have NEVER financed any automobile. My current daily driver was bought for $100 cash. The pickup truck was bought for $1000 cash, and my wife still drives the car that her family generously got for her college graduation.

I find it hard to argue the idea of say, two different and complementary cars for a working couple. In our case I drive 60 mi. to work and my wife drives about 10, each way. So she would drive the larger car and I would drive the smaller more FE one.

Is that what we're doing? Nope. Back in '95 we decided we like rear drive Volvo 240's and haven't bought anything else since. Now we're both in '89 wagons. Hers has a roof rack so will haul more stuff. I think we used the rack maybe four times so far. However my car does have all the FE mods, including the adjustments to the nut behind the wheel. So we've done well in that regard.

In many ways we're similar to the folks using two large pickups or SUVs per family because they haul something big occasionally, or take a large group somewhere. Are two big haulers really needed? Nope. But we do love these cars, not too different from the way some love their SUVs and pickups. But of course those don't get 25-30 mpg like ours do.

I do most of the work on our cars. Owning duplicates saves me from having to learn a whole new car. I stock one kind of oil, keep several oil filters and brake pads on hand, etc. We've bought five of these Volvos so far.

And, as tempted as I am to get a Civic or maybe a Paseo for my next car - - - I keep reminding myself that being on the road for 2-3 hours daily the extra protection of a heavier car could count for a lot. Just today I was in a game of 'chicken' with a truly big pickup that wanted to merge into my lane from an entry ramp. I don't think I'd have had the nerve if I were in a smaller car.

bennelson -

It depends (as usual). On the assumption that your wife works, I think the small commuter + larger vehicle is ok if you can combine the commute to your respective jobs. If you can't combine the trips (I can't), then I think two small cars and a trailer hitch make more sense.

CarloSW2

It ain't ten different things, but having something for heavy hauling, light hauling (both people and stuff), city, highway, traffic, and backups... is where it's at IMO. Look at it this way, given the low cost of used vehicles, spending an extra grand on one can save that much if another one needs to go for repairs. Since insurance can be had in month increments, that's no problem, and since reg is so damn cheap, that ain't much of an issue, not that they all have to be registered at once either.

I agree on both points: Hatchbacks are one of the best all-purpose vehicles. I never would of imagine agreeing with those words until I got one. I tolerated it at first, but then something happened. It turns out it was one heckuva design. Commuting economy, the ability to haul LOTS, and to still have some fun.

My philosophy -- if you need anything bigger than a small car or wagon, it's cheaper to rent it for a day or so, than to finance it, insure it, fuel it, maintain it, etc, etc...

Do the Math.

RH77

I have 7 cars :) They all have a specific purpose and pretty much only do one thing well each.

Also a neat trick if you want to do it to avoid the registration and insurance hassles is to buy and sell 5 or so cars a year so you qualify as a dealer and can get dealer tags. That way you can have all the cars you want sitting around and just put the D plate on whatever one you want to drive at that time. A neighbor of mine does that and it is hard to say what car he will be driving from one day to the next.

I think it would be hard to find a car that did everything I needed, it would be a jack of all trades, master of none type of car. Those are most of the time more annoying than not. So my car collection does everything I need done and does it pretty well without having to put up with doing something in a car that it isn't made for.

Show us yer math if ya would. I don't think so, but maybe you know the ins and outs of rentals better than I.

I just wrote a blog the other week about more or less the same thing. For some reason we think that our cars need to be able to do everything and are therefore not very good at any. It's hilarious watching ads with Volvo station wagons full of mountain climbers or Jeeps splashing through rivers as if that's what all the drivers use them for. Most people buy them because they want to feel safe around the city or like to feel the potential to be adventurous (sorry to any actual mountain climbers or frequent river crossers). If you aren't using your vehicles full potential then downgrade to something you can make the most of. Your idea of multiple cars would be even better if you could share your pick-up with some other close friends, it would be unlikely that you would both need one at the same time. Then you can have 2.5 cars, a commuter, a holiday highway cruiser or people carrier and half a pick up.

Yep. I've got a Civic for driving and a small pickup for hauling. Last week I hauled 6 feet worth of kitchen cabinets, a month ago it was 18 boxes (450 sf) of flooring. It's good to have a truck :p

When I need to haul larger stuff (4x8), I know plenty of people with full size trucks that I can bribe with extra gas money :D

Payment? What's that? The beauty of driving older cars is not having to pay a note. Sock away $100/mo for maintenance/surprises.

So renting....

$68.59 estimated out the door for a "Chevy Colorado, Dodge Dakota or similar"

I pay ~65/year for my car's registration... So we'll call that one rental :p
Insurance with Esurance is $641.00 every 6 months* for my car....

Adding a 2000 Ford F150 that will be driven less than 5K miles/year. This brings the insurance up to $1,150.00. That's $1018 a year to insure the truck - we'll call that 14.8 rentals.

So just to tag and insure - that's equivalent to nearly 16 pickup truck rentals.

I'm not including gas you'll have to pay for that regardless of which scenario you go with.


Okay, lets go with old pickup. 1981 (as far back as esurance goes) F150 for less than 5000 miles per year. Insurance totals to $1,006.00 . That's an extra $730 every year - equivalent to 10.6 rentals. I'm going to ignore maintenance as I'm fairly certain the '81 will have significantly more wear than the '00...

So to tag an insure the 81' F150 - that's equivalent to about 11 rentals per year.

Back to the original statement...
I too share this line of thought....

The Rental Secret
 

OK, there's a lot cost analysis, so allow to be brief. First, I don't have room for multiple vehicles. Next, let me check the latest on rental vehicles:

Major hardware outlets rent a pickup / stake truck at about $20 + mileage for several hours (or Enterprise "Rent-a-Van" or U-Haul has one for about $50 for a day). I found a 15-passenger van last year to transport a group of "pre-marriage party folks" for about $40/day from a local truck rental company.

Of course, I cheat and get free days because I drive like 2-3 different cars a week for work -- so for me it works like magic. But when I didn't have the free days, it was still cheaper. When we go out of town, I'll get a weekend special on a 4-cyl. sedan for $20/day or less (which to me is worth the wear and tear on a newer car)...or a Mini-Van for 5+ of the fam on long trips. We travel a lot (for work myself, or taking the fam on road trips).

All of this = no registration, no addl. insurance (unless you opt for the sales pitch), no monthly payment, and you're not locked-in to commuting in a beast. $$$ in in the bizzank.

Just go to websites of the previously mentioned companies or Orbitz.com and compare vehicle prices for your area.

I completely agree. Save the bucks and get what you need, when you need it...

RH77

EDIT: Thanks to Treb for actually doing the complete Math and equivalents :thumbup:

I think the first example is fairly disingenuous, since buying a newer used vehicle is quite expensive, so I'll just start with this one.

-There's no reason to pay for insurance every month for a year when someone could just pay for the month they use the vehicle.
-Those insurance rates are quite high IME. On an older vehicle, there is, financially speaking, little need for collision, and a year's worth worth of insurance is ~$600, or about $50/month.
-Reg for vehicles of that vintage IME, is roughly $25-45/year.

So, taking an example from experience, a small uhaul pickup was $20, plus gas and mileage. Gas wasn't too bad since it was a Toyota V6 and unleaded was ~$2/gallon, but it was still about $25 bucks. The mileage charge though, was killer at something like 60-70 cents/mile, and that alone resulted in an extra $100+. Companies that don't have a mileage charge tend to be far more expensive up front IME. (edit) I mention uhaul because I know I can be a bit rough with their vehicles, can I dent or scratch one of the $70-80 enterprise trucks w/o worrying about having to get nailed for it?

Otoh, I can insure something much larger, equivalent to one of their larger trucks, for a month, for the same initial price of their larger trucks. If I factor in the current 80 cent/mile charge, it wipes out any difference in insurance and the yearly registration fee, as well as cutting into the gas. So, my beater truck could get worse mileage and still be cost neutral. That being said, since it's my vehicle, it would be silly not to modify it such that fuel consumption and costs are minimized. In the case of a VO conversion, that's any easy win. But even with keeping a small truck gas and doubling the efficiency, there's a good $50-100+ difference, depending on miles driven, per use.

That being said, something like this isn't for everyone. It requires the facility and desire to wrench, being o.k. with an older vehicle, etc... But, there are lower floors for older vehicle use than there are for rental use. Obviously, this is YMMV, but based on my research and experience going through rental (or tow) companies and not having backup vehicles can cost as much as having additional vehicles. If someone can point me in the direction of a company that offers vehicles in the range of ~$60-80/rental truck with 30 days, or even 3-5 days/unlimited mileage, or maybe less considering a vehicle I use would likely be setup for better efficiency, I'm game, since that would be roughly equivalent in terms of cost.

I don't think it was disingenuous - which is why I put an old and a car equivalent to the age of my current car. 8 years is well past the major depreciation hit in the first 36 months. That, and I actually got real quotes - putting my SS# and information in.... I did NOT include collision ;)

But lets take your example

$20 for UHual Pickup rental plus mileage. That's $19.95 + $0.49 per mile. Lets say we'll do 40 mile average per rental (a cross town move). That's $39.60 plus any taxes. This is a situation where say you have to move a crap ton of foam and don't have a truck...
http://www.instructables.com/files/d...TEV.MEDIUM.jpg

I'm still going by my registration costs - ~$65 It's great that yours is less, but I'm not you :p Sounds like you pay more per mile at UHaul than I do anyway...

So I'll go by your insurance rate of $600 a year. So I'll pay $665 for insurance and registration a year. Using a UHaul pickup - that's 16.8 rentals. So, after taxes and crap - Lets call it 15 rentals/year. I'm going with the pickup to continue comparing the same vehicle. Insurance rates for those moving trucks absolutely suck (and why we go rid of it...)

Okay, so lets say more miles are done - in your case - 125 miles per rental. That's $81.20 per pickup truck rental. Still 8.2 rentals per year - So ~7 rentals after taxes and crap.

Plus, you can beat the crap out of a UHaul more so than you would your own car - and UHaul has roadside assistance should their equipment fail on you (if it does, your rental is comp.'ed)


Even using your insurance rates - and your mileage - and using the rates from UHaul.com this statement is still valid
The problem is.... People buying trucks/large vehicles in order to avoid a $30 delivery charge a couple times per year...

It's probably less than most which is why mechanics are busy :p

Who says you need a stinkin pickup
 

I just thought you would get a kick out of this. I saw it years ago and just dug it back out.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...mber-Car-A.jpg

This is the actual picture taken by the local police before they had the car towed.
I forget where i found it but I saved it cause I thought it was so funny.
Bet now they wish they had rented that pickup.

Bennelson commented:
“They used to call that all-purpose vehicle a station wagon.”

To which I say:
What is a SUV but a station wagon on a truck chassis with an extra drive axle?
What is a hatchback but a little station wagon built on a subcompact car platform?

Holy cow! You don't think a statement, which was directed at others, and I responded to with information about my situation/s, is disingenuous if you respond to my statement by using information about your situation/s, when it's not your situation that I'm using, but my situation in response to this general statement from RH77 to everyone else? C'mon meng... :pRH77's statement was to everyone, including all their own unique situations, not just your cherry picked example. ;)

That's your example, not mine. My example/s would be what I do/need. Thus far, the only info you have on my examples are my insurance/registration rates, a range of associated fuel costs, and the number of days I tend to use a vehicle on a trip. I suppose from that you could infer some range as well, but in any event, your cherry picked example is not my example. You can't just take a few attributes, and claim it's something I would do. Well, you can, but yer reachin if I'm responding to a general statement about what's cheaper for me... :thumbup:

Fer sure. How many people do you know that would do something for themselves in less time than it would take to "earn" the money to pay someone else to do it? No a whole lot. Why? I dunno, I guess most people just like doing repetitive tasks for a longer amount of time than it would take to just fix their own stuff. :turtle:

OK
 

Allow me modify my statement:

My philosophy -- if you need anything bigger than a small car or wagon, it's EDIT: generally cheaper to rent it for a day or so, than to finance it, insure it, fuel it, maintain it, etc, etc...

EDIT: For your situation, crunch some numbers to see if it works.

Strike: "Do the Math" -- my intention was not a derogatory "duh" statement, but a request to estimate costs.

Further: I don't see that this is a personal attack from/against/between members in this thread. Each member has different situations.

My point is not to run out and buy a truck/SUV because you might need it a few times a year (and thus drive it every day). Purely my stance, no offense to anyone who feels otherwise. I'm trying to back-up my idea with Science, and so, I agree with Treb's calculations to further support the argument.

RH77

Nope, it's stuck like that for all eternity, a time longer than time itself, but smaller than an uncountably long time. ;)

In order to do that, even with a general case, you'll need to have/present more information than just anecdotal accounts, to show that in general what you said is the case. I think defining stuff such as bounds and what you meant by "in general" quantitatively would be a good start. Not to say that what you said isn't true in general, unlike my response to your earlier statement, just that you need way more data to establish it in a scientific way IMO.

That is, unless I use the all-powerful "edit" button [insert Dr. Evil laugh here]...

C'mon BBQ-man, don't make me work for it :p

OK, I agree that at least 3 examples would make it "Scientific".

Short Story -- A few years ago, I nearly bought an early-80's VW Diesel Pickup to haul larger items or use it for my computer business at the time (the Rabbit chassis) -- or "Caddy" as it's called. At the time I lived in an apartment, so I would've needed to park it at a friend's house. Plus, insure it for a year and learn to repair it as needed. At the time, the Math didn't add up.

Here's the question. Let's say you have the space to park one vehicle. What would would you own and why?

RH77
(more stats pending)...

Nope... Only 2.7182818... examples. ;)

In any event, as per the question, I need more info.

That being said, there's a pretty large divide between those that have one or no car in the city, and those, like myself and Coyote X who have room for a bunch.

Am I not one of "others?" You asked to see the math :p So I chose two vehicles -and old one and one equivalent to the age of my DD. I'm willing to be most of the members here have vehicles that fall between that range.

Sure, but I don't have everyone' Social Security numbers to get insurance rates with :p I highly doubt anyone is going to give me their SS# on top of their hauling needs. I personally wouldn't do that - which is why I can only give my situation.

I was given
-Registration
-Insurance
-Cost of Rental
-Approx. distance your traveled on your rental.

These are the four metrics I've been looking at. I haven't included gas as you'll need to pay for gas in whatever method you use to acquire a vehicle. And I haven't been including maintenance as that will vary and is not predictable. So I took my registration, your experience with insurance rather than my quote, my cost of rental from UHaul and two selections of mileage (yours* and mine). I'm not sure how that's considered cherry picking. *Looks like I made an error there and used 80 cents per mile rather than 65 cents per mile.... That changes the cost/rental by ~$12

Depends if your job is repetitive :p But, most people don't have the know how or means to DIY. I personally have the know how, just not the means to do anything major (timing belt, clutch, etc.).


Station wagons have to meet safety criteria for cars. So yes, an SUV is a wagon without the wagon safety standards/requirements.
Sure, hatchbacks could be considered like wagons - I guess. Just with less cargo area :)


-----
So get a quote from esurance for a 2000 F150 and a '81 F150 on top of your normal car. This way we all have something to compare to. Yes, the evidence provided is just barely anecdotal. Again, because we don't have everyone else's SS# to get insurance quotes. But UHaul rental rates appear to be the same, registration varies from state to state around 1 rental or so (we'll say yours is the low end, mind is on the higher end). Mileage does vary from person to person (so I've made effort to include the approx mileage you implicitly provided)..... What, specifically, are you looking for?


Don't get me wrong - I'm not attacking you personally... Although I will admit I'm not entirely satisfied when asked to show math - I put my SS# down to get numbers from an insurance company and then told I'm not being candid/straightforward. I can send a screen shot of the eMails I got if you want... Hell, I even got the distance from my local UHaul to my school's campus then to the foam drop off location to a gas station and then back to the same UHaul. 40 miles wasn't arbitrary - I took 30% over that mileage calculation and added ~1 to make it an even 40 :p.

Whew, sorry for another long winded post.. Beer for everyone...

Lets see.... say you pay cheap insurance on a new 08 truck, at like 40 bucks a month, gas is 32 gallons, gas is $3.20, and in the end, you pay over $40,000 from interest, maintenance, gas, and everything else.

Or... You could rent it all for less than 500 bucks with all that stuff.

Now this is talking about a new vehicle. If we're talking about paying for a truck for 500 bucks, insuring and etc... then your good with just buying it.

Sure ya are. But as per RH77's statement V1, I'm not looking at what you situation is, I'm looking at what mine is as per the statement.
Sure, but I'm talking about my situation WRT statement V1, not yours or anyone else's.
You were given time too. Initially 30 days, but in a reasonable comparison, 3-5 days, since most of what I do doesn't take a month, but can often take more than a day. And fuel use...
It's cherry picking because it's not my situation wrt statement V1, it's a mix.
I'm pretty sure the majority of jobs can be considered repetitive. ;) That being said, tools for said jobs aren't as expensive as having them done IME. This too is YMMV, as it depends on how well you can repair stuff, including tools, and all sorts of things, but it's definitely possible to get a buncha tools for not too much cash.
My use as per a counterexample to the statement V1. Now, you can use your own situation, but that's hardly something that applies to what I can do wrt the statement V1.

Like I said...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...reen-drunk.gif

Well sounds like one big misunderstanding then - I thought other people's situation would have been fine after you asked for RH77's :o

Suds
 

OK, I'll take that beer now...

OIC, you thought I was asking for RH77's specific situation and not about how the statement applied in general, so to speak. It's no sweat. Better spending time here than arguing with the fruitcakes on PO dot com about how everything isn't made from oil. :thumbup:

Does anyone tag team their vehicles with a neighbors or friends?

I would think that borrowing your brother-in-law's pickup truck when you move would be the classic example of tag-teaming w/ someone else's vehicle.

That really is the best way to go, I wouldn't want to own a full size truck, but I can barrow one from my job, along with a 16 foot flat bed trailer, for smaller loads I can barrow my parents Ford ranger, or I can barrow a friends minivan.
If I drive in to town I have a friend with a number of bicycles that I can barrow as well.

I have a hatch back and that works for 99.7% of everything I do, but it doesn't work for hauling plywood, firewood, and other vehicles, but it does work great for people (5 seat belts), modest amounts of lumber, tools, chainsaws, bicycles, mopeds, towing small trailers, camping gear.
but it is nice to be able to haul a motorcycle home, or scrap wood, without renting or owning, just fill it up with gas when your done.
and I love being able to barrow a bike to putter around town, I haven't installed a bike rack on a car in years.