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-   -   Technically, 'aerodynamics' (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/technically-aerodynamics-34301.html)

botsapper 09-13-2016 01:56 PM

Technically, 'aerodynamics'
 
High-performance Ariel Atom ditches the wings and uses another 'aerodynamic' solution to minimize wing drag and improve cornering stability. The Ariel Atom Aero-P uses banned racecar technology ground effects, it uses a bottom tub with flexible side skirts and two electric fans to create a vacuum/suction down force. The downforce system can be turned on or off on demand, higher downforce at turns and low down force on straightaways.
It may not be practical on regular road cars (rocks and road debris) but it will benefit track cars without the use of massive spoilers and wings.

This Ariel Atom Uses Electric Fans to Suck It Into the Ground

redpoint5 09-13-2016 02:41 PM

I've always wondered why they don't just use articulating wings that are computer controlled and "fly" the vehicle around corners instead of the caveman approach of artificially making the car weigh more, and forcing the rubber to provide all of the velocity change.

Why make down force when it isn't the intended vector?

botsapper 09-13-2016 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 522601)
I've always wondered why they don't just use articulating wings that are computer controlled and "fly" the vehicle around corners instead of the caveman approach of artificially making the car weigh more, and forcing the rubber to provide all of the velocity change.

Why make down force when it isn't the intended vector?

Active Split rear wing; they have invested significant CFD testing and analysis (as per car model) as well as wind tunnel testing. They assign split blade angles that is the appropriate down force according to corner speeds and steering wheel input.

Don't know why this did not take off, might have been outlawed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7l70Q6P-vU

redpoint5 09-13-2016 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 522602)
They do, it's called "AIR RACING" usually done at Reno, NV.

I'm talking a wheeled vehicle with rudders (neutral lift / downforce) that fly around corners instead of relying on down force for traction. You don't need traction when you speed provides the wall of air necessary to push off of.

niky 09-13-2016 10:05 PM

I wonder... should be simple enough to install rudders in wing uprights... have them linked to the steering mechanism for simplicity.

redpoint5 09-14-2016 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niky (Post 522615)
I wonder... should be simple enough to install rudders in wing uprights... have them linked to the steering mechanism for simplicity.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'd put 'em up front too.

RedDevil 09-14-2016 04:19 AM

Ha. Use 4 wheel steering and rake the whole body.
Driverless race cars to cope with the G forces :)

The horizontal split wing reduces body roll, but you would still corner faster if the outward flap moves up fully too; more pressure on the outward wheels, faster cornering.
You would not want the split. You want the whole wing helping you through the corner.

markweatherill 09-14-2016 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by botsapper (Post 522599)
two electric fans to create a vacuum/suction down force.

I bet it cuts grass real good too.:)

kach22i 09-14-2016 10:25 AM

This story reminds me of other technologies banned from racing because they were too good and made the competition noncompetitive.

Porsche goes green...100 years ago - Wheel hub motors (2) - CNNMoney.com
Quote:

One racing version, created in 1900 and capable of a top speed of 37 miles per hour, had electric motors in all four wheels, allowing Porsche Cars to claim that its founder created the first all-wheel-drive vehicle.
The article above is rather brief, but there was a book in college I read twice which had photos of this car and the full story behind it.

You have to recall that the race tracks back then were the city streets and country roads, both often just trenched mud pits with a few rocks tossed in for laughs. 4WD was a huge advantage back then, and hybrid electric often more reliable than ICE alone.

freebeard 09-14-2016 10:48 AM

Pagani use active aero on the street, but use flaps instead of wings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1zXCAPbJYk

R. B. Fuller proposed flying the tail of his Dymaxion Omnidirectional Transport, but for fuel efficiency instead of downforce.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...f5307910-o.jpg

The problem with drawing a vacuum in the plenum under the vehicle is that if the dynamics of the vehicle's mass lifts the edge sufficiently the downforce dissipates catastrophically.

jamesqf 09-14-2016 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kach22i (Post 522630)
This story reminds me of other technologies banned from racing because they were too good and made the competition noncompetitive.

I think the idea is that it's supposed to be mostly about the driving. Same reason they don't allow recumbent bikes, or most aerodynamic improvements, in the Tour de France. Heck, you could probably win every closed-track race by replacing the driver with a bunch of electronics :-)

kach22i 09-14-2016 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 522632)
The problem with drawing a vacuum in the plenum under the vehicle is that if the dynamics of the vehicle's mass lifts the edge sufficiently the downforce dissipates catastrophically.

You mean like this?

07Dyna - It's in my Brain and Needs to Get Out: CAR GIF PLUS
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bQuEi6efsQ...ar-flips-o.gif

basjoos 09-14-2016 03:35 PM

The down force vacuum unit would need to be able to handle leaves, sticks, plastic bags, dust, and any other road debris that might be sucked up by this "vacuum cleaner on wheels". Public roads are a lot dirtier than a race course.

freebeard 09-14-2016 05:34 PM

kach22i -- Yup. Not even the example I had in mind. And neither was under suction.

/almost stuck the landing.

botsapper 09-14-2016 07:22 PM

Maybe ask the top Dyson engineers with their best 'vacuum' technologies know-how in vehicle design. They are sometimes allowed to have time and 'play' with different projects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtdze7ZXk9s

Magajgfha 09-15-2016 01:56 AM

[OT]
Quote:

One racing version, created in 1900 and capable of a top speed of 37 miles per hour, had electric motors in all four wheels, allowing Porsche Cars to claim that its founder created the first all-wheel-drive vehicle.
No, at least unicycles are older by 31 years.
[/OT]

kach22i 09-15-2016 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magajgfha (Post 522704)
[OT]


No, at least unicycles are older by 31 years.
[/OT]

Funny, but I'm pretty sure there is a difference in definitions between one wheel drive and all wheel drive.

Interesting comment by jamesqf about racing being more about the human element of competition rather than the manufacturers showcasing their wares.

I disagree completely, at least in context of early automobile races.

There was much to prove mechanically back then which outweighed the individuals crowing rights to superior driving skills.

Superior on-board mechanical repair skills were yet another element vacant in modem races, that is if you exclude the navigator on off-road endurance races.

Riding mechanic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_mechanic
Quote:

A riding mechanic was a mechanic that rode along with a race car during races, and who was tasked with maintaining, monitoring, and repairing the car during the race. The various duties included manually pumping oil and fuel, checking tire wear, observing gauges, and even massaging the driver's hands.[1] They also communicated with the pits and spotted from inside the car.[2] If the car ran out of fuel, or otherwise broke down, the riding mechanic was usually responsible for running back to the pits to fetch fuel or the necessary spare parts...............

Indianapolis 500
Joe Dawson (left) and riding mechanic Harry Martin (visible on the right of the cockpit) winning the 1912 Indianapolis 500.

Riding mechanics were used by most cars in the Indianapolis 500 from 1911 to 1922, and again from 1930 to 1937.

Grand Prix
Riding mechanics were also required in the classic era of grand prix. Riding mechanics were banned in Europe after the death of Tom Barrett in 1924.

jamesqf 09-15-2016 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kach22i (Post 522719)
I disagree completely, at least in context of early automobile races.

Sure, I was only talking about contemporary racing, where a lot of mechanical things that would give an advantage are banned. Gas turbines come to mind.

kach22i 09-16-2016 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 522733)
Sure, I was only talking about contemporary racing, where a lot of mechanical things that would give an advantage are banned. Gas turbines come to mind.

Agreed, modern racing is mostly about driver skill, with many many exceptions to the rule.

I am fortunate enough to recall when this controversy reached perhaps it's apex. I think it was ABC's World Wide Sports program on broadcast/roof top TV in 1973 when I was 13 years old. Only thing which could have kept me indoors on a splendid summer day back then.

Mark Donohue and the Porsche 911 RSR IROC
Porsche 911 RSR IROC | Mark Donohue | Dutton Garage
Quote:

The IROC

In October 1973, twelve of the top drivers in the world were invited to compete in IROC, the International Race of Champions.

A series of four races were to be held in America and the aim was to reduce all other variables, such as the car, its modifications and fine tuning, so that only one factor remained: the skill, tactics and bravado of the drivers.

The drivers were selected from all four major branches of racing:

Formula One
USAC
NASCAR
SCCA

Selecting the drivers was an easier job than deciding on the car that would facilitate this race of champions.

The drivers chosen for the first race were all title holders at the time:

Mark Donohue
Bobby Allison
Emerson Fittipaldi
George Follmer,
A.J. Foyt
Dennis Hulme
Gordon Johncock
Roger McCluskey
David Pearson
Richard Petty
Peter Revson
Bobby Unser

But a car that could live up to the occasion was now needed.
http://duttongarage.com/img/10742/4786
Quote:

What Donohue helped steer the development of was a hybrid of the 1973 2.8 RSR and the 1974 3.0 RS.
If I recall correctly, the TransAm race series which preceded IROC was similar in nature in that the muscle cars of the era were quite equally matched and with similar flaws and or characteristics.

Interesting to note, and an attempt to swing this discussion to "aerodynamics" is that the era being discussed also begat the HP Vs Aerodynamics controversy, with Carroll Shelby infamously stating that "Aerodynamics are for people which don't have enough horsepower".

I cannot seem to find that exact quote on the Internet right now, but it is stuck in my head from somewhere.

EDIT-1

Enzo Ferrari perhaps said something similar?

https://www.pinterest.com/lenshirley39/racing/
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...67d7fdfbaa.jpg

aerohead 09-17-2016 04:06 PM

Ariel drag
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by botsapper (Post 522599)
High-performance Ariel Atom ditches the wings and uses another 'aerodynamic' solution to minimize wing drag and improve cornering stability. The Ariel Atom Aero-P uses banned racecar technology ground effects, it uses a bottom tub with flexible side skirts and two electric fans to create a vacuum/suction down force. The downforce system can be turned on or off on demand, higher downforce at turns and low down force on straightaways.
It may not be practical on regular road cars (rocks and road debris) but it will benefit track cars without the use of massive spoilers and wings.

This Ariel Atom Uses Electric Fans to Suck It Into the Ground

The solution for the Ariel was to cover it's Cd 0.65 body with a 'body',cutting it's drag in half,and dispensing with it's lift issues as a byproduct.
Lipstick on a pig goes to silk purse.


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