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-   -   Tesla's EV strategy has a looming future rival... (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/teslas-ev-strategy-has-looming-future-rival-31390.html)

botsapper 02-25-2015 12:42 PM

Tesla's EV strategy has a looming future rival...
 
...or as Elon Musk calls the dumb pick, 'fool cells' technology.

Toyota Motor Corp. has always held on hydrogen as the next efficient portable energy source. They are still hedging their future on fuel cell-powered vehicles. Toyota wants to establish itself at the leader in this technology, it has a lot of other believers. Honda Motor Co., Nissan, Hyundai Motor Co., Daimler AG and General Motors Co. still invest billions of dollars into fuel-cell technologies since the 1990s; hydrogen’s allure as an abundant, cleaner & low-carbon fuel. Even with their successful EV brand Prius, Toyota still thinks FC is a game-changer: gasoline-performance with clean tailpipe emissions and avoiding the heavy weight, range, cold climate and refueling time issues of battery-laden EV vehicle. Toyota sees the ramp up to their hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle production by the 2020's, not unlike their own EV production in this decade. Toyota, Nissan And Honda just teamed up to develop Japan's hydrogen station infrastructure.

Meet the fast-charging, affordable ‘future’ car that Elon Musk hates - The Washington Post

Toyota, Nissan, and Honda to Jointly Support Hydrogen Station Infrastructure Development - MarketWatch

jamesqf 02-25-2015 01:35 PM

I think anything to do with hydrogen fuel cells really belongs over in the Unicorn Corral.

nimblemotors 02-25-2015 02:55 PM

Garage Built Car Takes on Elon Musk's Tesla
 
A guy in his garage is taking on Tesla with a new 3-wheeled electric car.

Unlike the billionaire who failed without Government and Toyota backing,
and has built a car for the wealthy to show off their conspicuous consumption,
first a $120k sports car, now a huge $100k car, the guy in his garage is building the car Elon Musk says he 'wants' to build, but won't: a small economical EV, one with a small carbon footprint that anyone can afford. One optimized for single-person work commuting, which makes up the majority of car use in the USA.

Elon Musk won't build it, the guy in his garage is, and you can too.

Nimble Motorsports Home of the EZOne3 Electric Kit Car

gone-ot 02-25-2015 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by botsapper (Post 469401)
...[snip]...

Honda Motor Co., Nissan, Hyundai Motor Co., Daimler AG and General Motors Co. still invest billions of dollars into fuel-cell technologies since the 1990s; hydrogenís allure as an abundant, cleaner & low-carbon fuel.

Hydrogen (H2) fuel has no carbon content whatsoever.

"Good Luck" to NimbleMotors...just remember who "won" the David vs. Goliath battle. :thumbup:

botsapper 02-25-2015 03:26 PM

[QUOTE=Old Tele man;469428]Hydrogen (H2) fuel has no carbon content whatsoever.

Lower carbon footprint; hydrogen production pathways from natural gas, coal/biomass gasification and carbon-base fueled powerplants electrolysis.

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles | Center for Climate and Energy Solutions

gone-ot 02-25-2015 05:28 PM

[QUOTE=botsapper;469433]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 469428)
Hydrogen (H2) fuel has no carbon content whatsoever.

Lower carbon footprint; hydrogen production pathways from natural gas, coal/biomass gasification and carbon-base fueled powerplants electrolysis.

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles | Center for Climate and Energy Solutions

I knew what you meant, but that wasn't what was posted.

So, all we need now is infinite electricity to 'dissociate' the oceans into (a) hydrogen for cars and (b) oxygen for life to offset the forests that no longer exist to produce it. :(

niky 02-25-2015 07:18 PM

And perhaps if we use up enough of the ocean, we'll prevent flooding from Global Warming? :D

Toyota's push is not going to go as well as Tesla.

-

I can tell purely from the fact that the Mirai is ugly as ducks, and the Tesla looks like a Playboy centerfold. Alternative energy may be a niche market, but niche buyers still have a sense of taste.

-

Of course, of the two companies, Toyota is more likely to be around ten years from now, when investors finally get tired of jumping on the hype machine and Tesla's stocks drop back to more realistic prices (which may or may not be catastrophic, depending on Tesla's cash position at that point), so I guess it's a moot point.

NeilBlanchard 02-25-2015 08:25 PM

Hydrogen fuel cell electric cars are far less efficient than battery electric cars. Just getting the hydrogen takes more electricity, and then you have to transport the hydrogen. Fuel cell cars, like the Toyota Mirai are about half as efficient as a BEV, and they have a cooling problem. They have to operate at 100F or lower, and they are producing only a little less heat than an ICE, this becomes a challenge.

The Mirai has TWO onboard compressors - one for the hydrogen (to re-compress at the fuel cell?) and one for the air, so that the fuel cell works.

Virtually all the hydrogen used now comes from steam reformed natural gas. So, it has at least two sources of carbon - the natural gas and the heat source to make the steam. Then there is the carbon used to transport the hydrogen. Then yet more from the compression up to 10,000PSI.

Hydrogen is about as likely as a unicorn breeding program.

nimblemotors 02-25-2015 08:30 PM

Which is why they call hydrogen cars a 'fools cell' car.

Car companies love the idea, it takes millions of dollars of research and infrastructure and government funding and certifications and regulatory compliance and safety controls, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc for such a car.

ONE MAN IN HIS GARAGE COULD NEVER BUILD A HYDROGEN CAR
so they don't have to compete against them.
This is called changing the playing field to eliminate competition

jamesqf 02-25-2015 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard (Post 469477)
Then yet more from the compression up to 10,000PSI.

And then the weight of the containers needed to hold gas at that pressure. Ever carried around a scuba tank? And those hold only 3000 to 4400 PSI.


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