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-   -   Thermostatic warm air intake (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/thermostatic-warm-air-intake-27400.html)

Obormot 10-30-2013 03:13 AM

Thermostatic warm air intake
 
2 Attachment(s)
Hello!

here is another warm air intake setup, but this time temperature of intake air thermostatically controled, by mixing cold air from outside (upper pipe) and hot air from output collector (lower pipe coming under thermal shield of output collector). in this car (Nissan Note 1.6 AT 2007) is very little free space under the hood, so connection to output collector's thermal shield is not visible.

thermostatic element is mechanical, without electronics and external power.
now it holding about +30C

pipes are 2-layered, second inner layer is cardboard.
for thermal insulation it is slightly better, than just aluminium foil.

later i will do better insulation, i think it will be one smaller pipe inside other bigger, and space between will be filled by some non-flammable insulation matherial. or i wrap this pipe by some insulation matherial.

main target - lowering fuel consumption, warm-up time and increasing driveability on cold engine while using E85 fuel in winter.

one of lacks of E85 fuel - higher consumption, long warm-up time and not good driveability on cold engine in cold weather, mainly becouse of high heat of vaporization and flashpoint.
i will try to decrease this effects by using warm intake air.

last winter i already made small experiment with usual metal pipe from thermal shield of output collector to intake pipe. i get some noticeable positive effect, but i did not any measurement, and installation was not very good.

this time i plan to do some tests with or without WAI:
1. warm-up time and fuel consumption on idling
2. warm-up time and fuel consumption during driving
3. fuel consumption on warm engine (different constant speeds)
4. maybe acceleration

i plan to use k-line adapter and TECU program (and some others) to log data and made some charts and graphs.

now i did some tests - temperature of intake air (by sensor in MAF) holding about +29...+31C all the time, at all driving conditions. on long idling it slowly increasing to +40...45, i think it is becouse of position cold pipe over the radiator, but original intake pipe has same position, so, i will think about it.
temperature quickly returns to +30C after 1-2 minutes of driving.

now outside is about +10...+15C, so i will wait temperatures lower 0C and start testing.

also, this week i will install such system to Nissan X-Trail 2.0 AT 2003.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...4&d=1383115178

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...5&d=1383115178

rbrowning 10-31-2013 08:09 AM

old school WAI
 
When I was first introduced to cars my dad favored BIG Buicks. Typically they would have a flexible cardboard tube that could draw warn air from around the exhaust manifold and up to the air intake nozzle. There was a thermostat there that would control whether warm air was drawn in during warm up, or if slightly cooler air was used normally.

In this picture the tube has an aluminized foil coating.

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/AS..._buick_455.jpg

whatmaycome14 10-31-2013 09:23 AM

Neat!

Obormot 10-31-2013 09:33 AM

yes, many old carb. engines has such thermostatic devices.

my is based on spare part from LADA :)

Obormot 03-16-2015 09:19 AM

5 Attachment(s)
automatic hot-cold air mixer, and installation on Nissan Note 1.6 and Nissan X-Trail T30 2.0

warm-up in cold weather condition become MUCH faster.

fuel consumption in cold weather not increased (comparing with warm weasther).
it is very good, becouse usually for Nissan Note fuel consumption increasing about +1 l/100 km for every 10C down, for driving in city.
for X-trail increasing usually was even bigger.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...0&d=1426511533

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1426511585

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...2&d=1426511585

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...3&d=1426511915

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...4&d=1426511915

WD40 03-16-2015 11:21 AM

This looks very similar to mine, the unit i used was out of a newer volvo wagon.
It seemed to me that the sensor was way to fast at opening the gate.
What I ended up doing was a cable to manually adjust the gate.
In hindsight I think maybe adding some mass to the sensor to slow down the opening might work better as what I really wanted was an automated system.
What did your unit come out of?

Obormot 03-16-2015 11:37 AM

from VAZ-2108
part number 2108-1143010

gate moving pretty slowly
no need any connection to vacuum, external sensors, power or something else.

http://i027.radikal.ru/0710/b6/e27e678b6693.jpg

Obormot 03-16-2015 11:45 AM

other installations of this device (not mine):

https://d-a.d-cd.net/ec980dcs-960.jpg

http://nexiaclub.perm.ru/download/fi...caa21ffd6fee9c

https://f-a.d-cd.net/6c8c72cs-960.jpg

https://a-a.d-cd.net/6ab1fbcs-960.jpg

http://vwts.ru/images/repair210/226613_08.jpg

https://c-a.d-cd.net/c907b64s-960.jpg

oil pan 4 03-21-2015 05:03 PM

Thank you for the part number.
I just bought one.
Total impulse buy, I will figure out what to do with it later.

Piwoslaw 03-22-2015 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obormot (Post 471885)
from VAZ-2108
part number 2108-1143010

Obermot, do you know the manufacturer of this part, and what make/model/year/engine it can be found in? My mechanic searched for it on his supplier's database, but couldn't find it.

How easy is it to get in Ukraine, and what price?

Obormot 03-23-2015 01:06 PM

it's from old VAZ car (USSR)
VAZ 2108, 2109, 21099 models, engines 1.1, 1.3, 1.5 l.
also it was on early models of 2110 and 2111 cars with same carb. engines.

price in Russia about $15
in Ukraine price almost the same, but now i move from Ukraine to Russia becouse of war.

found video, that shows how this thermostate working.

on video operator warm-up thermal element by hand, and door slowly moving from "cold intake" position to "warm intake" position.

veeeeery slowly, becouse temperature of hand (36.6C) just slightly higher than "switching" temperature of thermaostate (about 35C).
if temperature will be higher (for exapmle, put element to hot water) door will switch much faster.
and if element put to cold it will move door back to "warm intake" position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9ap5RJI8vo

oil pan 4 04-07-2015 01:47 AM

I got mine today from Ukraine.
And you answered my next question. 35'C is just about perfect.

Is there a larger version of this part for a slightly larger engine?

mikeyjd 04-07-2015 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 472530)
Thank you for the part number.
I just bought one.
Total impulse buy, I will figure out what to do with it later.

What website?

oil pan 4 04-08-2015 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyjd (Post 474469)
What website?

ebay.
I punched in that part number a few weeks ago, bought it and it showed up this weekend.
If the seller could go to Russian NдPд and buy one of these thermostatic controllers for $15 and sell it on ebay for $43 (plus shipping), if I where them I would keep trying to sell them.
I have a but load of money tied up in paypal so I was not worried about getting it $5 or $10 cheaper some where else that does not take paypal.

Edit: I just checked ebay and there are 2 on there now, a little cheaper than what I bought mine for.
Just search "2108-1143010" only 1 item will come up.

I say buy the one from the guy in Ukraine, do your part, help them rebuild their wrecked country.

Obormot 04-08-2015 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 474443)
Is there a larger version of this part for a slightly larger engine?

no, only one model.

now i thinking about producing of part like this in 3-4 sizes for bigger engines.

cosmick 04-08-2015 11:04 AM

This is '70s tech, it made it easier to jet a carb when the intake air was always one set temp. Now we have OBD2-level SMPEFI, this hot air tech is obsolete. The cheapest and easiest solution is to embrace the horror of the newest engine in your local salvage yard. Swaps are fun.

mikeyjd 04-08-2015 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmick (Post 474602)
This is '70s tech, it made it easier to jet a carb when the intake air was always one set temp. Now we have OBD2-level SMPEFI, this hot air tech is obsolete. The cheapest and easiest solution is to embrace the horror of the newest engine in your local salvage yard. Swaps are fun.

For some of us, custom fabricating a plethora of components to swap an engine would be considered more expensive and difficult than attaching this out of date WAI... If it works, who cares when tech was developed?

elhigh 04-09-2015 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmick (Post 474602)
Swaps are fun.

Maybe for you.

We don't all have garages, we don't all have engine hoists, we don't all have years of mechanical experience. For some of us, making little changes here and there is the limit of our competence, "dipping our toes in," so to speak. It would be better to encourage and constructively advise those people, rather than tell them to drop their idea because it's old or obsolete.

http://ecomodder.com/imgs/aero-stevinson-dog-after.jpg

Also old and obsolete. But it works.

mikeyjd 04-09-2015 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elhigh (Post 474736)
Maybe for you.

We don't all have garages, we don't all have engine hoists, we don't all have years of mechanical experience. For some of us, making little changes here and there is the limit of our competence, "dipping our toes in," so to speak. It would be better to encourage and constructively advise those people, rather than tell them to drop their idea because it's old or obsolete.

http://ecomodder.com/imgs/aero-stevinson-dog-after.jpg

Also old and obsolete. But it works.

I've done probably 20 engine swaps. I admit it can be fun. I also don't see much reason to swap a perfectly good engine out of a daily driver, for something from a junk yard that may have unforseen issues.

elhigh 04-09-2015 10:23 AM

To date I have swapped two engines: one from a 1971 Opel GT (actually that was pulling the engine so we could send it out for machine work. Rebore, line bore, new bearings, the works) and one from a 1983 Snapper mower.

To pull the Opel's engine we had to build an A-frame to support the winch hanging from the garage beam. That was two houses ago and my dad was the point man for that project. I like to think I know something, but most of what I know is facts, not practice. I'm just muddling along, trying not to screw up too much.

AbramWagner 06-12-2015 03:05 PM

I have a lot of really steep long hills that That I've lost too much power and started using more fuel just trying to maintain speed and I've been fiddling with Geting my wai right and wasn't sure what to do.


What size engine is this from?


And is 35c or 95f the magic number for how hot you want your intake air?
This valve maintains it to that temp correct?

Obormot 06-12-2015 09:39 PM

this part is from old carb. engine.

for carb. engines temperature of intake air must be not less than +35C, becouse gasoline evaporate in carb, this lowering temperature and can be icing on some carb. details.

but for modern injection engines i think +35C is too hot, i plan to readjust thermostate to +20C.

i check accuracy of my thermostate, it is about +/- 1C

engines was 1.1 - 1.6 L.

Gombal 07-21-2015 06:30 AM

Can you tell me the size of the 3 inlet holes?
I want to use it in my 1.4TDCI Ford, if the outside temp. is above 30 degrees celsius i see a rise in fuel economy. If i could keep my inlet air temp. above 30 at all times i guess it would always be more economical.
First i thought it was due to the higher diesel temp. but now i'm using Forscan and i see the diesel temp is always between 50 and 70 degrees, not depending on outside temp. but on engine load.
So i would like to know the diametres, if they are to small the engine chokes. (had one from a vw polo but that was way to small)
Thanks in advance!

oil pan 4 07-21-2015 08:34 AM

Diesels do not see benefit from warm air intake like gas motors do.
Keep the diesel on cold air. The only time you want warmed air going to a diesel is once it gets close to or below freezing.
The fuel economy going up because of the greater than 30'C temps is just due to fast warm ups.

Gombal 07-27-2015 03:27 AM

Well, ordered one from ebay a few days ago. I'm going to test it to see it for myself. I'm still wondering if it's the fuel temp or the air temp but it could also be a combination of the 2.
Got a scangauge, using Torque and Forscan on my tablet with a bluetooth obdII dongle. Forscan has the most visible pids, sadly no trending options.
If after testing for a couple of months i see no change i will implement fuel preheating. Had a W124 diesel Mercedes and still got the fuel preheat system of that car. Works with engine coolant and a thermostat.
Thermostat has a fixed setting of about 25 degrees celsius.
Sadly enough i can't read IAT2, the sensor after my turbo. So i put in a outside temp sensor in the aluminium egr plug so i can see whats happening. Not as fast and accurate as the real sensor but with only 1 mm of aluminium between the outside temp sensor and the hot pressurized inlet air it reacts pretty quick.
Sadly it only goes to 70 degrees celsius and then says HI but i now have a pretty good picture of the inlet air temp.
Ordered 2 temp gauges from china which should go to 125 degrees, then i can also see the 70 plus temps.
My car doesn't have an intercooler, Ford in it's immense wisdom decided it wasn't necessary so no cold air for my engine ;)

oil pan 4 07-27-2015 03:49 AM

Its neither elevated fuel or intake air temperatures will help, unless its around freezing.
The best thing you can do for a diesel is install an engine block/coolant heater to speed warm ups.
Every engine is different but diesels tend not to show gains with fuel or air heating.

Gombal 07-27-2015 06:34 AM

Well i'm just curious, i drive 70 kilometres to work everyday (and 70 back). If it would be solely from the fast warm ups i could understand if i drove short distances. Of the 70 km about 45 is highway, 120 km/hr.I work shifts so i rarely have any traffic jams because i'm not on the road when the rest of Holland has to go to work or goes home.
99% of the time on cruisecontrol, simply because the car is drive by wire and there's almost no resistance in the gaspedal so my foot gets cramped.
First i thought warming the fuel was the answer, the Mercedes was equipped with it and there was almost no difference between summer and winter FE. (Must say it was a normally aspirated engine, standard cold air intake and indirect injection as the Ford is turbocharged, standard luke warm air intake and common rail)
As far as warm ups go, with Forscan i can see the amount of diesel injected per stroke, as soon as the engine is reaching 60 degrees celsius i see the injected amount decreasing. Cold or warm weather, this is always within the first 4 to 6 kilometres so not much diffrrence on a 70 km trip.
I know there are a lot of factors influencing the FE summer versus winter but as i don't have a garage i can't simply influence the engine and transmission oil temperature before startup for example.
What i can do is change the inlet air temp or with a bit more work, the diesel temp.
indirectly i'm also changing the engine's working temp 85 degrees celsius at 120 km/hr with cold air intake versus 88 degrees with warm air intake. Because there's no intercooler the compressed air is 10 to 15 degrees hotter when entering the engine at the same speed and load.

oil pan 4 07-27-2015 02:04 PM

70km may sound like a way more time then what is needed to warm up a vehicle but I have seen posts on here where people have found that they don't get their best fuel economy until after the engine oil and transmission fluid are up to full operating temperature.
Some of our members have made observations showing that it can take as long as 30 to 35 km to bring a car's engine oil and transmission up to full temperature.
These were on gasoline engine cars with no engine coolant to oil heat exchangers.

The reason why fuel heating doesn't tend do anything beyond initial warm up is because the diesel injectors are screwed into the cylinder head. So the injector and the fuel getting sprayed through it is going to be the same temperature as the cylinder head.

Out of all the diesel manuals I have read, all of them do not recommend using "cold air" if that cold air is below freezing to -10C. At that point they recommend drawing the air for combustion from inside the engines enclosure. The engines talked about often did not have intercoolers.

Another thing I have noticed with diesel cars is they tend to take longer to get to operating temperature then struggle maintaining operating temperature.
They are just too efficient for their own good sometimes.

Do you not have any way to plug in a engine block heater?

Piwoslaw 10-01-2015 03:20 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Reviving an old thread, now that it's getting cold...

I found a used thermostatic WAI for VW Polo/Lupo, part number 6N0 129 608 C. I could not find a used one for Lada/UAZ, and a new one would be more expensive.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1443727178

More on the install in Theodor's modding thread.

Obormot 10-02-2015 08:54 AM

another number is 6n0129608g
looks very similar to VAZ regulator, almost same construction.

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/...1tBh_q9dLg.jpg

https://translate.google.ru/translat...tml&edit-text=

oil pan 4 07-11-2016 02:39 PM

I just picked up another 2108-1143010 from Ukraine for right around $25.
Last time I bought one I thought it cost quite a bit more.


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