Thinking about a Gen1 HCH
 

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Okay y'all, I need opinions about this car. I'm seriously considering one for many reason, which are:

- Family car. I will be married in less than a year, and need a nicer car than the Ecoscort for the Mrs. Parker lol. We plan on starting a family in a couple years, so that cuts out all the coupes from my list (need a 4-door sedan). Which include the Insight, CRX, VX...

- Great fuel economy. Hands down, this car will get better FE than my modified ZX2. I have read ~70 mpg while cruising, which will only get better with ecomods!

- It is newer than my car and a good bit nicer interior wise, with more room.

- I don't mind working on the car to keep it in good running order. I like the hybrid IMA system, but what I really like is that the car can be driven if the IMA quits working. This is a big plus over the Prius.

Any constructive criticism is welcome :) Tell me all the good, bad and ugly you know about the car. And I have not decided between a manual or CVT... I've read that all G1 HCH have lean burn. Truth or no?

IIRC the HCH's all have the hybrid battery at the back of the rear seats so those do not fold and the boot space is compromised.

I turned away from the (newer) HCHs and bought an Insight. I carried a bed, a tree lately, a big drawer cabinet, a cubic meter of luggage (part of it in a rooftop box) together with the family, etc.
None of that would have fitted in any HCH.

If you're wanting a car to tinker with, the Civic would be a good one. Its quite capable of great mileage especially in 5mt trim. If you're looking for a reliable car that gets good mileage pretty much no matter what (or who drives it), go with the Prius. The batteries just last, they don't have anywhere near the issues that that generation Civic has. I've owned two 04 Prius, and an 03 Civic (non hybrid, but same suspension, etc as the hybrid). The Civic needed a ton more work done to it vs the two Prius which I've virtually had to do nothing to.

That being said, I still own my 2nd Prius. Its my wife's car and she loves it. But, I always have my eye out (and a craigslist email notification setup) for a deal on a 1st gen 5mt Civic hybrid because I think it would be a really fun car to tinker with. The Civic handles much better than the Prius and that made it feel more fun to drive.

Rear footroom/legroom in a Civic is pretty minimal (as in nearly non-existent). Would there be enough room for a baby carrier?

I have put car seats in the back of my Civic just fine. It even has anchors.

I would definitely recommend a Prius over a HCH1. Especially if you plan on starting a family. I have worked on several HCH1's and yes, the leg room is very limited in the back. The Prius on the other hand is a different story. Lots of leg room, nice interior, batteries last forever, very low maintenance. Once you have kids, do you really think you will have time to be messing with the car all the time? Trust me on this. You won't get better mileage in a Prius than a civic, but it will be a lot more convenient in the long run.

Kids xor free time
 

My kids are 8 and 6 years old and finally keep themselves busy a bit more, but we used to count our free time in minutes, not hours.
Once they were in bed and the disaster areas were cleared we just dropped on the couch to watch TV, unable to find the energy for anything else.
It doesn't help that my son has Asperger's and my daughter is overly active and vocal.

We manage and things are improving bit by bit.
What remains is a giant backlog of things to do, any modding and forum activity has to be weighed against the everlasting pile of useful hand binders.
It is the one step at at time approach, and allowing yourself to be satisfied with that step instead of feeling guilty by looking at the mountain ahead.

But - I am happy to have my kids, wouldn't trade them for gold, not even for a Tesla model S 60. (I know, don't tempt me!)
- The washing machine does not have a spotless reputation (Alphons, age 3, after I repaired our ageing washing machine with a big struggle)
- (reciting the Greek alphabet backwards while getting changed - Alphons, age 5)
- Daddy, can you please turn your computer my way so I can see the (screensaver) photos while I'm eating my custard? (Dina, age 2)
- 101 is a prime number (Dina, age 5)
They are special. That's not just my pride as a dad, I tell you.

But indeed, if you plan to have kids plan to save time on anything else.

I love Hondas, but I'd get a Prius over a Honda hybrid. Unless it's a 1st gen manual Insight!

For the same money, yes. But there's no such thing.

What stings me is that the Prius in the wild does not match its EPA numbers, while the Insight does. In practice the Insight matches the 2nd gen Prius and is only marginally thirstier than the 3rd gen, nowhere near the 20% the EPA numbers suggest.
Then there is the handling... the Insight feels more responsive and lists less in corners. Drivers car versus comfort.

All in all both the Insight and the Prius are very good cars. If you can bear them.

Baby Diesel should buy neither.
Buy a manual Fit (Jazz) instead.
A hypermiler can match or even surpass hybrid economy with those (see PaleMelanesian's fuel log!), they are cheaper anyway, but most of all the seats and roof are higher so it is much easier to fix and remove kid seats and their occupants.
Your back will be thankful.

The boot is large for a hatch and has a practical shape. Then there is the extra room under the rear bench; the floor runs flat to the rear as the fuel tank is under the front seats, so you can put 2 large bags there.
Or flip the bench up to move your 60" flatscreen or a pair of mountain bikes.

I would have bought a Fit Hybrid if the dealership had matched my reasonable bid. They did not and I followed up on an Insight that was ridiculously low priced, but at a Honda dealer so I had to assume they were serious. I own it now.

Anyway... get a Fit! :)

Here's my advice if you go with a HCH 1 (mine currently has 219,000 miles on it and my lifetime average is around 60mpg).

All models except those sold in California have lean burn. Easiest way I know to tell the difference: there should be a sticker on the driver side rear door window. If it says "ULEV" it is lean burn. If it says "SULEV" it is not.

Get a manual. The CVT in the HCH1 is very very bad and expensive to repair.

You want either an '03 or an '04. With these two model years it is easy to wire an on/off switch to the clutch interlock switch which allows you to accelerate without using the electric motor (good for saving the battery and/or if you have a bad battery). For whatever reason this doesn't work on the '05.

I would also warn you that the hybrid battery will go bad (if you happen to find one that isn't already. They are pretty old at this point) so be prepared to refurbish/replace or do what I've done for the last few years, use it only for autostop and accelerate using only the ICE.

Thanks to all the replies everyone :)

Looks like I have a lot of deciding to do between the HCH, Pruis and the Fit! They all have their positives and negatives for sure.

It will be around 4 years before we will begin to start a family, so this car might last until the 1st newborn gets here, or it may be sold before then. All in all, they are all nicer than my current "deathtrap" ZX2 :D

I really like the Prius, it is the fact that when the battery goes, the car dies with it until a new $$$ battery is put in. This makes me really question if I want one, as the Honda Hybrids are drivable when the batteries start dying. Prius's hold their value around here (NC), too.

Leg room is not a high priority, as my fiance is 4' 7", so her seat will be slid all the way up all the time, giving the person in the back plenty of room :) No one ever wants to ride with me anyhow!

We have other vehicles to haul stuff in, including the stripped out ZX2 that can carry 16' 2x4s now, her Corolla and eventually my barn-on-wheels K5 Blazer.

All the vehicles mentioned can get 60 mpg, no there is no contest there. ...Although if the HCH1 is mine, the goal is a 82 mpg tank, no excuses:thumbup:

Doax, what kind of work did the HCH require?

Red Devil, that sounds like quite the life, I love the sound of it. I know kids will be difficult, but there's just something about having my own that I can't wait for! Your children sounds similar to me when I was their age, so I kinda know your struggle, as I see what did to my parents now that I look back:o I hope we have 2 girls and a boy of our own, and we plan to adopt and/or foster.

Mr. Pancake, thank you for all the information! Good to know that I have an almost 0% chance of finding a non-lean burn HCH in NC. I'm looking out for a manual now, as I when checked on the CVT replacement prices and reliability -> :eek::eek::eek:

Here is the only 5spd HCH1 in my area on CL :Honda CIVIC Hybrid STICK SHIFT2004 I can probably get it a lil bit cheaper than this.

This is a possibility: Buy a HCH1 for now and enjoy it for the next couple years. When we decide to start a family, sell the HCH and find a lightly used Prius 4 Eco, Fit Hybrid or the like then for family purposes. Yeah, I like the sound of that :)

Sounds like a good option. I am partial to owning a car but not NEEDING to keep it super long unless I fall in love with it. You can swap em out and have fun learning new and different things with each vehicle.

The 02 Civic LX (it was not a hybrid) with 180k miles needed:
head gasket
a couple new valves
timing belt & water pump
spark plugs
valve cover gasket
control arm bushings
camshaft seal
front motor mount
both accessory belts
ball joints
filters (oil and cabin)
valve adjustment
trans fluid change
electronic load detector
front sway bar endlinks
transmission dipstick
driver's door interior handle
paint touch up
hood release cable
some light bulbs
alignment


18 pages of fixing it in my EM thread here: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ing-29210.html

But the Hondas have a lot more battery issues compared to the Prius. The only advantage I see to the HCH is the availability of a manual trans.

Thank you for the link and the information Tim. That is quite the list, but most of it appears to be normal wear-and-tear items. I have fun doing those types of repairs :) The first thing I will do if i get a HCH is timing belt and water pump, as the engine is interference and I do not want to replace valves!

This true, I have seen this on this forum and other forums as well. I've been reading about Honda Hybrid battery care from Wayne Gerdes on GreenHybrid and there is some food for thought there... I think the pains of learning and handling HCH battery will develop a greater love for hybrids for when I do get a comfy Prius :thumbup:

The manual is a big plus for the HCH over the Prius. I want to be able to EOC safely after seeing all you guys do it for so long with great results ;)

Now, if there was a Stage 1 or 2 rebuild kit for a CVT, I would get a CVT HCH. But it appears there is not one... though the rebuild kits are not expensive at all... $185 off of Ebay. If there was only someone around here to rebuild one for a decent price!

Actually, it looks like it can be done for MUCH cheaper than what Honda would want for a new CVT -> Does anyone rebuild the CVT"s (automatic trans)? - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum This might open up another possibility :)

Why don't you just get a regular Civic and do the aeromods to match the hybrid (or eventually go a little further)? On a sidenote, I wouldn't doubt that a redneck-engineered BAS-Hybrid setup might be more reliable than the IMA :turtle:

Good question.

I am wanting a 4 door sedan so my passengers will not have to crawl over the front seats like in my coupe (ZX2). It also has a smaller engine (1.3, better BSFC) and lean burn, and while not as aggressive as the Insight, can and should be able to get 80+ mpg *easier* than most other vehicles.

I'm crazy, yet confident, that I can achieve 100 mpg with a HCH. A regular Civic getting 100 mpg would be possible only in competition.

Desiring a sedan crosses out the Insight, CRX, CRZ and VX :o

The starting Cd is 0.28, so I should get below 0.25 fairly easy with simple mods (grill block, lowering, underbody panels, rear wheel skirts, front gap fillers). I'm going to basically copy MetroMPG's Civic build, boat tail and all with my own flave and variations :) IF I get one, that is. There are a couple around (CVTs) that I could snag for $1000-$1300... the search continues onward.

HCH has a timing chain, no need to replace.

I can tell you a few things:

1) I'm 5'10, the wife is 5'2, two kids at 6'0 and 5'8. No one ever complains about legroom. And the taller kid generally sits behind me, so it really isn't as bad as all that. For longer trips he switches and sits behind the wife and it's quite comfortable for everyone.

2) Not having to think about a timing belt EVER is more freeing than you can imagine.

3) Lean burn is great until an O2 sensor goes. Interpreting which sensor has failed is not easy - there's three and my reader's explanation of which one doesn't always make sense. *sigh* Back to the dealership.

4) Vehicle is completely driveable with the IMA light on. Mine has been on for over a year now, though its condition has improved markedly with a deep discharge and grid charge.

5) Absolutely get the MT if you get an HCH. The CVT is a known weak spot. Supposedly there is also a known weak spot at the 2nd gear syncro, but mine has been working well.

6) The car responds well to the usual hypermiling tricks, especially EOC with the 5MT. Most days I have a 2-mile coast on the way home, as well as other shorter ones.

Would I buy another one: NO.

I love the fuel mileage and the space inside is quite good. But I can do nearly that well with other cars and dodge some of the budget-eating problems that are peculiar to hybrids. Given my druthers I would shop for a well-cared for four-door hatch from the mid-80s. Yes, as old as that.

That is bulgogi to my taste buds :D
(Favorite Korean dish)

Lots of good pros and cons, thank you elhigh! I'm on the lookout for a manual... but, I might get a CVT. Since I know that they can be rebuilt DIY for ~$500-800, and will reduce rpm/increase load automatically when I do more serious aero mods, I'm not against one.

Maybe it's my young mindset, but I am thinking that I can avoid CVT failure with a proper rebuild and TLC. Take my ZX2 for example. Everyone says that the autos are worthless and crap out quickly. I approach 285K today (got it at 199K) and wonder why this is said, as the transmission acts just as good as the day I got it several years back, pulls great and no issues whatsoever.

I have read from more than one source that the CVT's reliability can be improved with conscientious maintenance - mostly fluid changes if I recall. It looked to me like maintenance pretty far above and beyond what the owner's manual called for, which is asking a lot from the hoi polloi but within the reach of the ecomodder community, I think - and a guy banging on the 50mpg door with an auto Escort probably wouldn't bat an eye.

I have read the same on the Insight Central & Green Hybrid forums many times over. It is the same for the 1st Gen Insights as well has HCH: Decrease the fluid change interval.

You know me too well:thumbup: I have no problems with increasing maintenance in order to keep a vehicle alive and well.