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-   -   Three-wheeler with 2 seats and 1m width (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/three-wheeler-2-seats-1m-width-35786.html)

smallscaleH2 10-31-2017 06:06 AM

Three-wheeler with 2 seats and 1m width
 
The last few years, there's been much interest in reducing road congestion, ie by using "narrow track vehicles" (vehicles that have a width of 1m or less or thus about 1/2 of a regular car). Examples are Commuter Cars Tango, Narrow Car Company Naro, ... The idea here is that by using such vehicles, we can fit 2x more cars on a road, hence doubling capacity of the road, reducing congestion. Most 4-seater cars only seat 1 person on most trips, so capacity isn't a problem.

The question I had was: which 3-wheelers with a width of <1m and which seat 2 people exist on the (European) market today, and which of these still have a decent price (let's say 5000 euro max) ? The car needs to be road-legal and have a shell.

There's the Elio Motors 3-wheeler but this seems too wide, and too costly.
The Carver is no longer sold commercially (and was also too expensive).
There's the Organic Transit ELF, but it too seems too wide/costly.
Some velomobiles may seat 2 people but most are too costly and I prefer longer range (so use of an internal combustion engine). Same goes for the Raht Racer and the Drymer business.
There's the CLEVER, but it isn't commercially available.
Best thing I could come up with is an auto rickshaw (tuktuk), though most seem to be a bit too wide, and I also don't know whether they're sold here in Europe. They also have some cargo capacity.

rmay635703 10-31-2017 08:04 AM

Simple answer is there arenít any.

Complicated answer is that a lot of Chinese trikes fit that ticket, some are ev some are not but whether they are street legal by you who knows?

Christopher Jordan could likely describe his adventures in Chinese enclosed vehicles.

Frank Lee 10-31-2017 11:15 AM

"Reducing congestion" BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Breeders take any reduction in the Discomfort Scale as a sign to proceed to fill it up again, and then some.

markweatherill 10-31-2017 11:15 AM

I think the Smart car is the closest answer to this question.

Half-width size cars wouldn't necessarily help unless you re-engineer the roads so that only half-width cars can use them.

jamesqf 10-31-2017 01:44 PM

Also, it's not just the size of the vehicle that needs to be taken into account, but the separation between them.

The real solution to such congestion problems is to simply let them become self-limiting, so that people either move elsewhere, time-shift* their travel, or telecommute.

*For instance, when I go to visit friends and have to pass through the urban area that lies between, the freeway is invariably congested - often bumper to bumper - southbound in the morning while I'm going northbound at full speed, and vice versa when I return in the evening.

gone-ot 10-31-2017 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 553278)
"Reducing congestion" BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Breeders take any reduction in the Discomfort Scale as a sign to proceed to fill it up again, and then some.

Maybe that should read "Reducing constipation" for their thought processes (if any)?

RedDevil 10-31-2017 05:23 PM

Come on, guys!
It ain't that hard, it ain't.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/3835107840/h1BE93007/

This will combat congestion, if not in traffic then at least in the bowels...
This will also solve the problem of people wanting a two-seater trike really quickly.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-31-2017 11:07 PM

All I can think of right now is the Piaggio MP3, but good luck trying to put an enclosure on it.

smallscaleH2 11-01-2017 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markweatherill (Post 553279)
I think the Smart car is the closest answer to this question.

The smart fortwo is 1,6m wide, so not suitable. The Renault Twizy is better then, but this too doesn't match my criteria fully as it's too costly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 553287)
Also, it's not just the size of the vehicle that needs to be taken into account, but the separation between them.

True, but if there aren't 1m wide cars, the road separations are never going to be changed (you need the narrow cars first). I'm thinking that in cities for instance, implementing this change could happen quickly, especially on streets that were very narrow already (1-way streets or 2-way streets were cars can barely pass).

Another thought is the use of a velomobile, but then on a bicycle lane. Are velomobiles allowed to use these and what are the requirements for them to allow them to use these lanes ? I guess that 2-seaters will be out of the question here, Also, given the limited range, this vehicle shouldn't be (much) more costly than a regular bike. Short distances are done with it, so (hybrid) electric propulsion is only needed as an option (plain pedaling will do for most). Covering is essential though, but carbon fiber shielding will be too expensive, so I was thinking on whether there are any plastic coverings for regular and recumbent bikes available (generic ones, so not intented for a particular brand). These coverings are called "partial fairings" (wind screens) and "full fairings" (cover the entire bike), bimini tops are just top shieldings. Tailboxes also exist but don't shield the rider, rather they just improve aerodynamics. I found some more examples of fairings but perhaps you guys know some commercial suppliers:
* Luca Comba's regular bicycle front shield/top
* George's Cooper recumbent bicycle front shield/top

* Hase's partial covering for recumbent bicycles
* Zziper fairings
* Veltop fairings
* Lightning F-40 fairing
People doing slightly longer distances may best use a recumbent bicycle as they are 3,5x more efficient, however people in cities that already own a regular bike probably best just add a full fairing. If you need a recumbent bicycle, buying a kit may reduce the cost (see here).
There are also plans (see here,here, and here, and here).
The xyzcargo design seems the easiest since it uses plain metal beams (rather than custom-designed frames).

samwichse 11-01-2017 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDevil (Post 553296)
Come on, guys!
It ain't that hard, it ain't.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/3835107840/h1BE93007/

This will combat congestion, if not in traffic then at least in the bowels...
This will also solve the problem of people wanting a two-seater trike really quickly.

I don't think the ride would be quite as bad as you think. IIRC this was made to ride down railroad tracks.

But in answer to the topic:
The Tango works because it has four wheels and serious balast in the floorboards. Very narrow trikes are unstable. Not. Stable.

rmay635703 11-01-2017 01:57 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Chinese moped trike with roof

freebeard 11-02-2017 12:37 PM

Quote:

The last few years, there's been much interest in reducing road congestion, ie by using "cars" that have a width of 1m or less (thus about 1/2 of a regular car).
Your first example is Elio?!?

Citation needed. I would say the interest is in platooning, to fill the lane rather than reduce it's width. There is an opportunity to improve parking, but traffic lane width is fixed.

What would a 1-meter wide vehicle look like? It would be a tandem two-seater with two wheels, or a carver. Relax the 1-meter width restriction and make it a reverse trike and you have a stable platform for high-speed performance.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...8-100-1024.jpg

These are being built today, and the company has global intentions. They claim that due to the aerodynamic shape of the windscreen and top, you can ride in the rain without side panels. Three fit in a standard parking space.

sendler 11-04-2017 05:56 AM

Electric drive Two wheeled vehicles will offer the highest personal traffic and parking density.
.
.http://cdn1.bikebandit-images.com/bl...esharing-1.jpg
.
.

sendler 11-04-2017 06:01 AM

Toyota i-road
.
https://youtu.be/K-Tj4r49xYc

smallscaleH2 11-04-2017 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 553331)
Chinese moped trike with roof

That's a two-wheeler, and it doesn't have 2-seats either. 3-wheelers are more stable and allow to carry more people, and cargo. Two-wheelers (like bikes) are fine for plain home-work trips, and just 1 person then needs to be carried. However, a bike is something everyone has and adding just a fairing will be very cheap. Buying a completely new vehicle for this seems cost-ineffective, unless it too is relatively cheap and essential (distance between home-work being too great). The idea is thus that this vehicle would be combined with a larger regular vehicle (tuktuk) ie for shopping, transporting passengers, ...

A cheap motorcycle with fairings (or integrated full cabin as shown on the image) would do for this. Which brands do you think are best ? There's a lot of publicity being made for the Daymak Beast standard (2700$) and it should be fittable with a fairing but I'm not sure whether this is the most appropriate. I'm also wondering whether motorized kick scooters could be fitted with a fairing (because at the back there's no metal rod -from a seat- on which a fairing can be attached) If possible, they would be the cheapest option though (ie the glion costs just 600$ and has a range of 15 miles, the ecoreco has a range of 40 miles (!) and attains 20 mph (sold for 800$). The momas and mijia are somewhere in the middle (20 mph/20 mile range, 900$ and 15 mph/18 mile range 375$ respectively. The minizum and zum costs 1250$, reaches 19-21 mph, and has a range of 20 miles. For links, see here

@freebeard
That vehicle is called the "Arcimoto SRK". Too costly (11900$)
Also, doesn't have sufficient cargo space (tuktuks do have that and are way cheaper). Cargo space is important as cars are also used to carry food/drinks from supermarkets to the home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sendler (Post 553435)
Toyota i-road

Yes, could be a suitable vehicle, but just a concept car (not commercially available). Not sure on price, cargo space, ...
I found another concept vehicle that is also notable: the Schaeffler bio-hybrid. Same thing here though: no info available, and obviously not yet sold commercially. Another concept is the Grant Sinclair Iris e-trike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sendler (Post 553434)
Electric drive Two wheeled vehicles will offer the highest personal traffic and parking density

True, but they don't offer the benefits of 3-wheelers (see above). Also, in that image you showed, all people in there are breaking the law.

There are a few e-tuktuk's being sold here in Europe (see here and here) so those seem most appropriate. The Terra Motors tuktuk seems (design-wise) even better (less than 1m wide, whereas most tuktuks are 1,1-1,3m wide), but I'm not sure what the price is. Also, I prefer one that has a gasoline engine -on biofuel- (not electric).

Stubby79 11-04-2017 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sendler (Post 553435)

Looks to have solved the cornering stability issue!

Can I have one?

freebeard 11-04-2017 01:49 PM

Quote:

That vehicle is called the "Arcimoto SRK".
I know, I'm holding a reservation number.

Quote:

Too costly (11900$)
I know that too, but I wouldn't want to take a tuk-tuk onto the freeway.

Quote:

Also, doesn't have sufficient cargo space (tuktuks do have that and are way cheaper).
One body variant is called the Deliverator, for pizzeria and pharmacies.

Sendler — The picture reminds me of Saigon, now known as Ho Chi Minh City.

cr45 11-04-2017 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smallscaleH2 (Post 553437)
That's a two-wheeler, and it doesn't have 2-seats either. 3-wheelers are more stable and allow to carry more people, and cargo.

Actually it is a three wheeler with a rather narrow track. Consequently it leans into corners.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 11-05-2017 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 553446)
I wouldn't want to take a tuk-tuk onto the freeway

If I could get a tuktuk and easily make it reach speeds suitable to road traffic, I would most likely not ever want a more conventional econobox anymore. Easier parking and maneuvering in tight spaces, lower operating costs, and enough space compared to some subcompacts not available there in the U.S. sound quite hard to ignore.

freebeard 11-05-2017 12:38 PM

I want to take an Arcimoto SRK to Bonneville and run it with a P-38 belly tank for a body.

Frank Lee 11-05-2017 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sendler (Post 553434)

Awesome x10.

This is the endgame; the goal. :thumbup:

Grant-53 11-05-2017 05:50 PM

For those short of cash find a used tandem bike and the rear end of an adult tricycle. Add a coroplast shell and a hub motor front wheel.

Frank Lee 11-05-2017 06:31 PM

You won't achieve freeway speeds but then again, nobody will (see pic).

smallscaleH2 11-06-2017 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cr45 (Post 553456)
Actually it is a three wheeler with a rather narrow track. Consequently it leans into corners.

What's the brand/model ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant-53 (Post 553502)
For those short of cash find a used tandem bike and the rear end of an adult tricycle. Add a coroplast shell and a hub motor front wheel.

Covered bikes/e-bikes, velomobiles are cost-effective for people doing slightly longer distances. Can be combined with a vehicle that offers th same uses as a car (tuktuk, ...). Mentioned this at page 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 553466)
If I could get a tuktuk and easily make it reach speeds suitable to road traffic, I would most likely not ever want a more conventional econobox anymore.

Actually, that's already possible. The tuktuk links I gave have tuktuks on offer (equipped with 600cc gasoline engine) that reach a top speed of 100 km/h. So enough for freeway use (minimum speed 70, max 120). I think that if the tuktuk's modified a bit (ie by adding plastic coverings on either side, and/or lightening it by removing non-essential parts (ie seatings, ...) you could even get it to the freeway top speed (120 km/h).

cr45 11-06-2017 07:46 PM

There are a number of narrow track vehicles in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6eQI0TvM_Y

smallscaleH2 11-07-2017 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cr45 (Post 553539)
There are a number of narrow track vehicles in this video.

Seems the chinese vehicle is a Xingyue XY150KZ.
It's a 1-seater though, and hasn't any cargo space.

It also shows a Nissan LandGlider, which similar to the Honda 3R-C, is just a concept car.

gone-ot 11-07-2017 01:31 PM

How about only "letting" people drive UNICYCLES? Three "falls" and your license is revoked.

freebeard 11-07-2017 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant-53
For those short of cash find a used tandem bike and the rear end of an adult tricycle. Add a coroplast shell and a hub motor front wheel.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...d-projects.jpg

These were based on Type II parts, but I have a cruiser bike frame with a chrome springer front end. I could adapt the geodesic framing from my motorhome design and fabricate it in curved welding rod covered with burlap and polyurethane.

Hmm....

seifrob 11-07-2017 07:35 PM

May I just point out to OP, that tuk-tuk does not meet OP's requirements either?

The only tuk-tuk for sale in EU with listed price I was able to find is here: Buy a Tuk Tuk | Tuk Tuk UK . Listed price is 4987 GBP (+VAT) for base model (that equates to some 5600 Eur +VAT). Other sellers do not have a price tag (price on request) but I assume similar price range. E-variants will be a bit (a half??) more expensive, I assume.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 11-07-2017 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smallscaleH2 (Post 553516)
Actually, that's already possible. The tuktuk links I gave have tuktuks on offer (equipped with 600cc gasoline engine) that reach a top speed of 100 km/h. So enough for freeway use (minimum speed 70, max 120).

I was not considering that Thai tuk-tuk, which uses the same engine of some Japanese mini trucks. I was considering those Vespa-based ones which are more common in India.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-q1u2yGLGy6...2Besquerda.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YsYWMU3Rd3...25C3%25A1s.jpg
For more convenience and safety, I would add a hardtop and doors. A swamp-cooler wouldn't be out of question, since it takes up less power than air conditioning.

smallscaleH2 11-08-2017 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seifrob (Post 553607)
May I just point out to OP, that tuk-tuk does not meet OP's requirements either?

Agreed, most (European) tuktuks will cost more than 5000 euro. However, it's important to distinguish between those velomobile/bicycle-type vehicles (for one person) and vehicles such as tuktuks that have the same uses as a regular car. For the first, a price of 5000 euro is the absolute maximum; for the latter, up to 10000 euro seems still reasonable (considering that tuktuks also consume less and are less expensive than regular cars -taxing, insurance, ...-).

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 553627)
I was not considering that Thai tuk-tuk, which uses the same engine of some Japanese mini trucks. I was considering those Vespa-based ones which are more common in India.
For more convenience and safety, I would add a hardtop and doors. A swamp-cooler wouldn't be out of question, since it takes up less power than air conditioning.

Those shorter tuktuks with a single bench indeed seem even better (and they're way cheaper, ie 125000 indian rupee or 1658 euro). They should allow cargo transport as well as there's a single bench, and there's space under the bench too. Perhaps a roof rack could be added too. However, I haven't found any similar brands/models that are being sold in Europe and if you ship them from say India, costs will increase hugely. Perhaps the Piaggio Ape City might be sold in Europe as Piaggio is an Italian brand (although I doubt it since this model isn't available here appearantly) ? Another thing, as you already pointed out, is that the engines mounted are less powerful (200cc or less). Top speed is thus some 65 km/h which is too slow for highway use (although perhaps one could attain the minimum highway speed of 70 km/h with some aerodynamic improvements). I wouldn't add a hard top but instead just add a durable hard plastic for the top, and sides (still openable). In europe we don't need air conditioning or any cooling whatsoever as there are few times when it's hot here. A heater would be useful, but that could be added in the form of a separate heater (not integrated to the vehicle), or perhaps the heat from the engine can be channeled to the cabin somehow.

Some of the most used brands/models in India are:
* Bajaj RE
* Piaggio Ape City
* Mahindra Alfa
* TVS King three-wheeler
* Mithani Group Zeal 3-wheeler

seifrob 11-08-2017 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smallscaleH2 (Post 553641)
Agreed, most (European) tuktuks will cost more than 5000 euro.
<snip>
...up to 10000 euro seems still reasonable (considering that tuktuks also consume less and are less expensive than regular cars -taxing, insurance, ...-).

<snip>

so, basically from € 5k to € 10k for a vehicle, that does only minimal protection against elements, that does only minimal protection in case of accident, and that you need to modify heavily in order to reach legal limit for highway speeds /not to mention to cope with real traffic flow/ ?

I would rather buy some econobox - ie Dacia Sandero with € 7k listed price and 54 MPG.

( its not a spam link, I was once accused not cite sources in my claims. )

Grant-53 11-08-2017 11:34 AM

The question becomes how fast is fast enough? An e-bike might do 30 mph and the e-velos do 45 mph. The seating could be inline or offset. How many people travel solo versus two or more passengers? Would an e-bike carried on board a bus or train for 25 plus mile trips be more efficient?

smallscaleH2 11-09-2017 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seifrob (Post 553652)
so, basically from € 5k to € 10k for a vehicle, that does only minimal protection against elements, that does only minimal protection in case of accident, and that you need to modify heavily in order to reach legal limit for highway speeds, not to mention to cope with real traffic flow ?
I would rather buy some econobox at 7k€.

Point taken. One of the tuktuks mentioned (Terra Motors three-wheeler) is indeed quite light (300kg) and so won't offer much protection I think. The question however is whether it thus still meet safety requirements for highway use. I'm also not sure whether a regular car is much better btw; they've only been tested/are required to meet safety standards for 50 km/h accidents. So when crashing at more than 50 km/h (as is always the case on highways, as they have a 70 km/h minimum speed), it might not offer much protection neither and serious injury or death may still result. Also note that the tuktuks from the other links weigh in about 1,8 tonnes, so that's equally tough as a regular car. But as mentioned, I doubt that at high speeds it will make much difference.

I actually think that the low weight will also make road traffic a lot safer. If you hit a pedestrian or bicycle rider with a 300 kg vehicle, injuries should be 6x less than with a 1800 kg vehicle. In addition, the 300 kg vehicle will have a shorter braking distance, so some accidents could be avoided even.

As for the price: yes 10k is the upper limit I set, but if you look at the short tuktuks, these come at just 1,5 to 2k€, so way less than an econobox. The long tuktuks are a lot more expensive (if bought new). 2nd hand, they should be much more affordable. Also, you're not taking into account the insurance costs, taxes, road permits, ... which should be way lower with a 600 -or less- cc tuktuk. Heavy modification to attain the minimum or top highway speed (depending on the tuktuk chosen) isn't necessairy; just adding a plastic covering that shields the otherwise open parts of the cabin should do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant-53 (Post 553656)
The question becomes how fast is fast enough? An e-bike might do 30 mph and the e-velos do 45 mph. The seating could be inline or offset. How many people travel solo versus two or more passengers? Would an e-bike carried on board a bus or train for 25 plus mile trips be more efficient?

You're referring to the bike/velomobile which would always be a single-seater. It's used for home-work trips for one person, and electric propulsion is even only needed for longer trips (else, regular pedaling will do). Speed (30 or 45 mph) here is of little to no importance, if you reach 45 km/h, that's sufficient (bicycle lanes only allow a max speed of 45 km/h anyway).
The combo mini-e-bike + train/bus is also besides the point as most people just don't use a bus/train because they need to adjust their timing to it (and trains/buses don't always come on time either so you need to be present well before they are expected to arrive and wait at least 5 to 10 minutes). Another issue is that the bus or train doesn't drop you off exactly where you need to be (but this could indeed be solved using a mini-e-bike, downside however is that you need to carry it along and deploy/undeploy it every time).

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 11-12-2017 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smallscaleH2 (Post 553641)
Those shorter tuktuks with a single bench indeed seem even better (and they're way cheaper, ie 125000 indian rupee or 1658 euro). They should allow cargo transport as well as there's a single bench, and there's space under the bench too. However, I haven't found any similar brands/models that are being sold in Europe and if you ship them from say India, costs will increase hugely. Perhaps the Piaggio Ape City might be sold in Europe as Piaggio is an Italian brand (although I doubt it since this model isn't available here appearantly) ? Another thing, as you already pointed out, is that the engines mounted are less powerful (200cc or less). Top speed is thus some 65 km/h which is too slow for highway use (although perhaps one could attain the minimum highway speed of 70 km/h with some aerodynamic improvements).

Engine RPM, power and torque curve, and gear ratio might play an important role when it comes to reaching highway-capable speed too. But anyway, I'd be more inclined to adapt some 250cc engine out of a Honda or Yamaha motorcycle. Considering the power and torque curves, matching it all to the right gearing, and eventually some very discrete aerodynamic improvement, that would be suitable to my country's road conditions.


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