Toe set to 0: results (front end alignment)
 

Because it isn't listed on the wiki page, I wanted to post my results of having the tow on my tires aligned to 0. I don't have it in A-B-A format since I can't align the tires myself.

Anyway, pre-alignment I was achieving 39.6 MPGs, and with the alignment I am now getting 41.5 MPGs, which is a 4.8% increase. I should mention that my tires were in need of aligning, but I doubt they were a detriment to my original gas efficiency before the alignment.

I was at first hesitant to go through with this due to claims that 0 tow can make the car feel as if it will fishtail. However, I didn't notice a change in control at all, although my car does seem to drift from side to side in the lane. It's certainly no problem, and it handles the same. That being said, I'm being more careful with it just in case.

I hope this is helpful to someone!

The safety side of it is my understanding of why aliments are done the way they are done, that and the fact that once you are going down the road the wheels want to track to the center I think it is, so a bit of toe out is always added so that while going down the road they aline to -0-

Toe-out is self-reinforcing, it sets up a positive-feedback loop. With toe-out, you get a "twitchy" feel to the end of the car that has it.

Zero toe can make for a "floating" feel in some cars, but not all. I'm not sure what determines that, but I'd bet that some of it is the driver.

Zero toe is OK, but you want to be careful that the "give" and flex in your suspension does not give you much if any toe-out. That can result in a car that is a handful.

-soD

After a few days, my car is handling great! I might describe it as floaty, though. Either way, I'm very happy with the mod.

Thanks for the report, Row.

Congrats on your results w live-ability!!! I think this option is not for all. Someone with a van at 70mph. out on the prairie; would not be a happy camper! I love the pureness of this mod. Correct me if I'm wrong; but isn't it only the earliest Honda Insight that comes intentional stock with 0!!!????

At lower ecomod speeds, maybe more of us should be braver and try this; especially those in drier climates.

As the NASCAR guys say; some are happier, and more comfortable w a looser car!!


Remember: Friends don't let friends do Lateral Scrub!!!

I had mine done a few months back. Didn't take it all the way to 0 toe but the front was at 0.13 per side and I had them bring it down to 0.01 per side.
For the rears I had to get a shim kit as the alignment is not adjustable but I brought it down from 0.22 to 0.06.

Most of my driving is under 55 mph and feels fine but I have had it up to 70 and only had the slightest bit of float.

While you can't do an A-B-A for something like this I would say it was good for 2%-3%. I'm on new tires as compared to last year and have redone my grill block to be more efficient so I'm not able to do year over year progress comparisons.

Worth it if you need an alignment anyway but I wouldn't go out of your way just to do it.

Someone COULD do an A-B-A. I do my own 4 wheel alignment using a string wrapped around all 4 tires at axle level...and a DIY camber gauge.

http://www.nonags.org/members/nijqk/ZX3cambergauge.JPG

Yes, The Gen I Insight has a 0 toe angle standard. It may be possible to describe it as Floaty. When there is a crack or line in the road my car fill follow it if I don't have a steady grip on the wheel. I have always thought that was Honda stearing, but it may be at least partially the 0 toe angle.

The Insight was made for top mileage, so if it would help, they did it.

I was going to ask the mechanic to set my toe to half of whatever it was, to get less tire-dragging without incurring whatever instability might result from 0 toe, but it turns out the front wheels on my car have 0 toe stock. Hooray for efficient already, boo for not being able to increase it that way.

And, I do think that you need to have compared it to a just-aligned stock value to see what improvement 0 toe results in. Alignment can get pretty far off over time, depending on the car, maintenance history, road conditions, etc.

Zero static toe can work for front drive but not for rear drive. Front drives usually increase their toe-in slightly when under power while rear drives usually decrease their toe-in slightly due to the drag on the front wheels.

For the rear wheels on a FWD, I'd shoot for a slight static toe-in - aiming to get as close as possible to zero when in motion. If the rear suspension is supremely rigid, go for zero static toe.

Have a read guys:

google search for "the effect of wheel alignment on rolling resistance - a literature search and analysis" from the US EPA

http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/9...y=1&SeekPage=x

I'm going to have to give this a try on my rear Corolla wheels. My LR is out just by looking at it.

Do any of you know if the adjustment is on the lower control arm. Looks like a turn buckle function.:o

Thanks,
Dave

If there are threaded parts in the suspension links, then that's how the toe and camber are adjusted.

For cars with a twisting beam rear axle the rear wheel angles can be changed using tapered shims.

The angles on both sides should be the same. Don't let an alignment shop get by with "They're within the specified range." the right and left toe and other angles should be identical or as close as possible.

Galane,

That's what I was thinking, just have to figure out if it's a standart RH thread or not is all. Thanks for your input!

Dave

i just finished an alignment on my ford focus. rear was toed out 1/8 inch each side, and the front was toed in 3/32 each side. Everything is set to zero now and i am looking forward to testing it ou on the highway.
it wasnt very hard to do. i did the string method. i put each tire on two tinfoil baking trays stacked with grease between them. i might have to go back to how it was if my wife hates it, so we may have a a-b-a test coming up :P

red,

I'm confused.......
is she pissed that you put grease all over her tins or because the car handles funny?????? :confused:

i put each tire on two tinfoil baking trays stacked with grease :rolleyes: between them. i might have to go back to how it was if my wife hates it, :eek: so we may have a a-b-a test coming up

:D

FWIW, I just stack 3-5 plastic shopping bags under each tire. I've been using the same 10 bags or so for the last 3 years.

ok which is it?
the op has a rear wheel drive car (correct??) and he said 0 toe is good.
Then later some one says it only works on front wheel drive?

thanks for the laugh,they were my trays though.


i don't know about other cars but the ford focus has active blades on the rear that flex to change toe when you need it. i guess toe out helps with cornering.

Thanks. I did the search and found the full text of the article here. My link to it opens to page six, which summarizes and recommends in plain language. There are plenty of equations, tables, graphs and diagrams. Seems in 1978, EPA concluded the relationship between alignment, rolling resistance, and fuel economy was "significant." I need an alignment and found a place to set it according to requested specs.

I used to have a Nissan Sentra I had set to "0" for autocrossing. Turn-in was improved. No problems on highway. Agree that front drivers increase tow-in under power. Plan to check out the alignment on my new Prius c.

All the best.

here are the results of a recent alignment.
technition would not set rear to zero because i have negative camber. he said negative camber calls for positive toe.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...89083767_n.jpg

My understanding is a front-driver can handle "0" toe in front because as slack is taken up under power the front wheels try to toe-in. The reverse is true in the rear. Those wheels are being dragged along and toe-in will be less than at rest. I hope I'm making sense.

All the best

redorchestra- He is right! If camber is not readily adjustable(most cars are not) and negative camber developed (always does as suspension components wear and get "tired") but still within specs, the resultant inside edge tire wear can be offset with adding toe in as specs allow to stay within limits.

I do alignments almost every day but only recently got around to do my own car as new front tires went on.

Here is my before:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-3d...002-medium.jpg

And after:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-3d...003-medium.jpg

Actually not bad for a car with over 200 000 miles on it and never checked by me before.
I guess I could have opened up the rear toe a little bit.. On the front I decided to do a slight toe out (but get it within specs) as a compromise between pulse or cruising (it will toe in slightly) and coasting / or when slowing down with the brakes (slight toe out).

I've been reading the conversations about alignments on this site (not necessarily in this thread) and I see people getting very picky with the numbers to be exactly even side to side etc.
I just want to say that some vehicle's specs actually compensate for road crown (leaning to the right) so camber and caster specs will not be the same from side to side!

On my images you can not see this screen,but there are cross caster and cross camber displays that also have to stay within specs and sometimes even if those geometries ARE adjustable (like most trucks), the alignment can be a challenge and it is always a compromise.

So unless the customer has a specific concern, (which I always try to find out before I do an alignment) when you get those parameters "green" or within specs, you are done!

People usually will not realize how little of an imperfection it takes to be out of specs!
I would bet that while we are driving down the road, most or even all the parameters are continuously going in and out of specs according to road surface changes, loading/items/cargo in the vehicle,heck even the weight of the driver!

Unfortunately I see very few vehicles factory equipped with fully adjustable front and rear suspensions (caster,camber,toe). Those are usually fun to do!

Have fun!
Barna

that printout is great! so much better to draw a picturethan build a table.

i still dont know if the alignment has done anything to my mileage, but i do have a tiny bit of anecdotal evidence that it has improved something.

there is a big hill that i have to climbon my daily commute. it is on a twinned highway and it is pretty steep. (going down the hill, coasting my car accerates from 95km/h to about 110km/h.)
i set my cruise control to 95km/h and before i started ecomodding the transmission would drop to a lower gear at the bottom of the hill.
after a grill block i could get to the middle of the hill before dropping down a gear.
After the alignment i can clear the hill without dropping down a gear. ^•^

I've just decided to set front and back toe to ZERO....due to DIY inaccuracies.

Every time I recheck things the toe is off some (front and back)....so I'm going to try do it 2xs / year.

If I had to guess...most cars on the road are "way out" by 3 to 6 months after they are aligned....bumps and potholes?

Set alignment "zero toe"
 

At long last, I got my alignment checked and reset today (was waiting for completion of tranny swap, half-axel replacement, and final wheel size and tire choice).

Went for zero toe all around, despite fact that slightly negative might be best on rear when under power. I do a lot of coasting.

I have no idea how to judge any benefit, but the car felt great while driving home. And I learned that the bushings at the rear are wearing-out and that the right rear camber control arm needs replacing.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1388173144

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1388173144

Coast 60$ but I had probably never had alignment adjusted before... this is mostly maintaining the car and getting a mod in for free.

You got a shop to do the alignment the way you desired, AND to center it? Most places I've taken cars to for alignment just get it "within specified range" even if that range goes some to either side of zero and they have one side positive and one side negative.

If alignment techs put in the effort to get it RIGHT the first time they would have far fewer come backs for poor handling.

Another problem is shops that will do an adjustment even when worn parts make it impossible to get it accurate or for the adjustment to stay. The shop you took yours to shouldn't have done a thing to the rear alignment until you got the worn parts replaced or had them replace them.

Your camber on the right side is off quite a bit....I'd rotate the tires in a x pattern 1x per year? Shouldn't affect mpg too much though....

With a FWD car...the front tires carry most of the weight...do most of the work....cause most of the drag?

Buy some string and set your front toe to zero 1x per year?

I see your point about the worn parts on the rear, but take into account how my car presents itself to them. It is significantly modified and quite old though fairly well maintained. The tech had to come get me to start the car because he accidentally hit my injector kill switch and could not figure out what was wrong. My car is weird. When they returned it to me they told me about worn bushings and a worn control arm in the rear but said its $200 just for the part. he said it with a tone assuming I would not want that done, but he suggested I could do it myself. I think they just decided to give me exactly what I wanted and only that, telling me about other issues. They read me correctly. That's part of why I go back. Car feels good. Coasts nicely, though I can't be sure that's not just confirmation bias or a tail wind! The needed replacements go onto my list.