Toshiba claims EV battery breakthrough: 200-mile charge in 6 minutes
 

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Toshiba plans to bring the next-generation SCiB battery, with its new anode material, to market in 2019.


Toshiba Develops Next-Generation Lithium-ion Battery with New Anode Material | Business Wire



This could be the game changer...


:snail:

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I'll be thrilled if/when they start mass producing the next generation of batteries! :thumbup:

At ~3kWh per mile, that would mean the battery can take a charge rate of 600kWh in 6 minutes, or ... 6 megawatts? A 375v battery would be charging at 16,000 amps. Is my math wrong?

What would that even look like?

Yes I believe your math is wrong unless you are seeing something I don't. Usually EVs only use a couple hundred wh/mile. The battery being discussed is talking about 320 kilometers using a 32kwh battery. That would be about 100wh/km or 160whr/mile. Charging is 32kwh in 6 minutes or about 5kwh/min. I didn't see the voltage level you spoke of so I don't know where you got that information.
JJ

I think EVs are around 1 KWh for 3 miles. 225 - 350 W-H per mile is a common range from my reading. Even Jack Rickard's Electric Escalade used 'only' 777 W-H per mile.

So 320 km (from the article) is 200 miles. 200 miles / 3 miles per KW-h is 67 kw-h. 67 KW-h in 6 minutes is 670 kw-h in an hour, or a rate of 670 KW. At 375V that's 1786 amps. I think liquid cooling of the charging connector, charging cable, and battery pack are all required so that nothing melts!

don't forget to add chemistry inefficiencies. 600 watts in does not give 600 watts out. So you could realistically see 2000 amps input

the ranger which is an aero brick uses 430 wh/mi

It doesn't really exist until we can buy it.
Perket's law states the faster you charge or discharge a battery the less power you get.

Said chart is for a 32 kwh battery, and shows it can do 320 km(200 miles) on what it can get in 6 minutes.

Assuming it can safely charge 80% of the battery in that time, like the other rapid-charging of lithium batteries (might even be 90%, looking at the chart's 12 minute and 30 minute charge times), 80% of 32 kw is 25.6kw.

I doubt we're at the point where you can get 7.8 miles per kwh. Or even 6.25, if it got a full 32kw.

But, assuming it could suck in 25.6kw in 6 minutes, that's 256 kw...at 375v, that's still 682 amps...and more with losses.

Hmm. That's a lotta juice. Not impossible, but pretty out there. They'd seriously need to boost the charging voltage to make it reasonable and efficient. Some day, they'll have to have EVs running at thousands of volts rather than just hundreds.

I think the real problem isn't in the battery, it's how you get average (or below average) drivers to handle that much current without producing the occasional crispy critter.

We are averaging between 4.5 and 5.5 miles per kWh, in 3 different EV's. So, that is between 182 and 223 wH/mile.

They might also be running a higher voltage battery.

Tesla uses <400VDC for their superchargers, but Porsche is working on an 800VDC station!

That would be more like ~340A. My calculations say that could be handled by conductors 1cm^2 for a 2m long cable. It would be awkward and bulky as anything, but possible.

We have 00 gauge wires on our chargers at work for our battery operated equipment. They have ~3m long cables, and output "only" 120 amps. The wires generally stay cool, or only barely detectable warm, except sometimes near the connectors. They're generally only warm to the touch there, but when they get a bit of additional resistance for whatever reason...

I'd want something a bit better than those 350A anderson connectors, were I getting anywhere close to that kind of amperage. Something with a lot more surface area.

Forklift chargers here use 4/0 cable and are 2m long.

Since there is no standard to rate EV range they could be driving 35mph on an indoor track with no stopping.
So they could get 5 or 6 miles per kwh depending on how Un realistic the range test is.

Only so many ways you can do 32kwh. 40 ah @ 800V. That's only about double what is in the ranger right now which would give me 80 miles range.

Maybe they were using a 50v rated brushed shunt wound motor. Pulse width would be incredibly short.

If you go up into the k volt range, motor currents are going to drop for a given hp, but the C of Drag has to be incredibly low and it needs to be very lightweight.

Sounds like unicorn corral material.

Anyone else starting to imagine drivers getting electrocuted to death while charging their cars? Anyone else starting to wonder if self-service charging might get regulated out of existence? Is there a hardware/software fail-safe to prevent injuries? (Not that gasoline is safe, of course!)

There was that stupid contact free inductive charging paddle for the ev1. It wouldn't electrocute you to death but it was limited by physics to charge slower than death.

The J1772 plug used on most EVs for L1 and L2 charging communicates with the car before flipping on the higher voltage. I'm pretty sure the other standards and fast charging standards do something similar. So the only time there's lethal current available is from a few seconds after plugging in and when you push the button to release the charger. I don't know what would happen if you were to cut a cord that was in use or if they fail-safe if there's a malfunction.

Considering that anything bad happening with an EV (particularly Teslas) is front page news, the lack of electrocution stories implies that everything is pretty safe, likely many times safer than gasoline.

Unlike gasoline/petrol, electrons do not spill all over the place from a sloppily disconnected plug.

I'm sure that someone will figure out how to hurt themselves, no matter what precautions are taken.

Someone successfully sued McDonalds for burning themselves , because their coffee was hotter than the coffee that other fast food places sell.

The ChaDeMo charger only has power to the 12V pins, does a handshake to verify that it is plugged into a car, then turns on a contactor to begin charging. There is a latch on the connector that shuts off the charging if the connector is removed from the car.

So .. not fail-safe or perfect, but good. Every charger or charging system released since is a bit more paranoid and has a few extra checks.

The engineers are *REALLY* trying.

The McDs coffee was recklessly hot.

6 minutes for a 200 mile charge sounds great! I wonder if you'll be able to upgrade the existing hybrids and electrics with these better batteries when available?

Now that you mention it, we wouldn't be pumping in crazy amps to the car through a fat wire. We'd be pumping in crazy volts to the can and having the onboard charger convert it from mass volts to mass amps. It would have the shortest conductors reasonably possible after the charger, and there would be no loose connection or anything to worry about. And, since it's contained, it could run liquid cooling of some kind to said conductors, if necessary.

Not sure I'm comfortable with the idea of running 14kV to my car just yet though. :eek:

I have worked on 200 keV Ion Implanters, so HV doesn't bother me, as long as it is properly designed, interlocked and maintained.

The person who successfully sued only asked to have medical bills covered. It was the judge who suggested additional punitive compensation.

The burns were much worse than most people would have suffered since it was an elderly woman with thin skin, but the coffee temperature was too hot, and there had been prior complaints concerning this.

Unfortunately humans aren't all rational, and things must be made to be relatively safe even when misused. The woman shouldn't have spilled coffee on her lap, but the coffee also shouldn't have been so hot. In the future, the woman likely won't spill coffee on her lap, and McDonalds won't serve it so hot.

Used to work with an ex lineman who got crossways with something in that range. He managed pretty well with his artificial arm and leg.

The plugs are not "live" until after they are plugged in, and the system has confirmed everything good to go.

Sounds incredibly inefficient, huge amounts of waste heat just to charge fast.

How to do it..... buck conversion or huge winding transformers? Yucch

As far as I am aware the conversion is all solid state.

I'm going to say this one was a dude.

We don't want to assign a gender prematurely. One day it will announce an identity, and that identity may be fluid and change over time. As anti-bigots, we will affirm whatever identity it proposes.

'C of Drag'
 

Mercedes-Benz observed something like 720-miles, on around 100-kWh pack for their EQXX concept, so, around 7.2-miles / kWh.
They averaged about 57-mph over the length of the trip. Some range would be attributed to regen. coming over the Alps.
Lightyear Zero has a little lower drag coefficient. I'm unsure about it's frontal area.
Cd 0.175 isn't the 'floor' for drag. Wolf Hucho spoke of Cd 0.09 as the technologically-feasible limit, as of 1987. And that would all depend on what priority was assigned to aerodynamics, with respect to the vehicle specification.
It would mean the end of the 'Paris Dressmakers,' and I have no illusions about the automotive industry ever giving in to physics.

100 kwh pack gives me 250 miles, probably further in my aerodynamic brick truck particularly using higher pack voltage. Same setup in a bricklin ( insert favorite kit car brand here) with induction motor would get me better results possibly beating the mercedes by a lot.

My comment was originally: 14 kwh charge rate. Hmmm something is going to get really hot really fast