Toyota addresses EMF health concerns with hybrids
 

Some news for those remembering our previous discussion on the topic: Toyota addresses EMF health concerns with hybrids - AutoblogGreen

Hah! Nice, glad to see somebody step up and put the looney's in their place! I still wouldn't mind buying a super cheap prius because somebody is terrified of EMF any sellers? :-)

And if you are still worried about the EMF generated from the Prius, just make yourself one of those fashionable aluminum foil hats. Not only will that help you avoid those pesky EMFs, but it will prevent the CIA from reading your thoughts and prevent aliens from abducting you. It's a win, win, win situation!

I had a woman tell me once I was "rotting my sperm because of my cell phone use and told me I was going to have retarded kids". I guess she wasn't thinking about the satellite dish I was putting on her house, the radon gas deposit her house was on or the cigarette she had stuffed in her face.

And I thought my kid was retarded!

People (especially Americans) have become "sissyfied" in these times and complain about everything. I used to work in a very large Dealership and would see these kinds of people daily. They complain about the stupidest things and if they don't get a satisfactory response, they go complain to corporate headquarters until they can be pacified with money or something else.

I remember this lady who complained that if she held both her power window buttons in the "UP" position, the driver window was 1/2 a second slower than the other. The poor tech was told to replace motors, then regulators, then weatherstripping, and it came to a point the driver window became slightly faster, so we delivered it. Next day she came in complaining about it and said she did not want it till it was fixed right.

As a Team Leader, I decided to put and end to this waste of time and money and confronted her with the issue. I took her to the showroom where there was a whole line of identical cars. I made her try all the windows and they all had different results.

"Sorry lady, but these windows were not designed to be timed or designed to have the speed changed in them. Frankly, I think your complaint is not going to allow any more warranty repairs since there is nothing wrong with your car and we done all we could to satisfy your needs."

She ended up demanding the phone number for corporate from our manager after that. I have no idea what the outcome was of this, but I think it was one of the biggest wasted jobs that ever came to our team.

I have many similar stories like this one to share from my daily experiences and may start a new thread for that. It's just crazy what people are complaining about.

And where exactly were you holding that cell phone? :-)

Need more details...
 

I need to know for which ring mode. Ring or Vibrate?

The number one rule(due to conflict of interest), is to not believe the safety of a product as preached by a representative of the company. Cigarette companies used to say smoking was safe, as an example. The person making this comment would lose their job if anything negative was said pertaining to the product. BTW, insulting people because of they're beliefs ("looney") is a typical tactic of paid shills.

Off topic and irrelevant.

What's this got to do with EMF levels in a hybrid?

You know what they say about opinions/a--h-les. BTW, what's this got to do with the thread?

Actually...
 

My comment was on topic and completely relevant to this thread. I was just poking fun at the nutters who think an EMF from a Prius could be harmful, just like the rest of the comments on this thread. Specifically I was pointing out that fear of such a thing would be about as insane as believing that CIA can read your thoughts, etc. Obviously any EMF from a Prius won't do any damage to anybody. If somehow it did, by that logic, MRIs would be fatal. :thumbup:

Humor is so much funnier when you don't have to explain it.

The problem is that it isn't obvious. Actually, there is no definitive answer on the harmful effects of EMF. To state "a Prius won't do any damage to anyone" is an opinion of yours, not a fact. Any disinformation such as that statement, whether it proves to be true or not, is still for now, you're opinion with nothing to substantiate it and misleading to people reading it. I'm not saying you're wrong, just you're statement is, for now. BTW, just because people have concerns that you don't think are relevant, does not make them nuts. Remember, at one time everyone thought the world was flat and anyone who thought differently was whacked. How wrong that turned out to be.

The point here is that EMF is already generated in every ICE vehicle by the alternator. Furthermore EMF in a hybrid is sufficiently distant from the driver/passengers and shielded by sheet metal for any emf reaching the occupants to be miniscule. Considering most people use cell phones the thought that EMF from an electric car could be dangerous is laughable. Do you use an electric stove? Better wear a lead apron. Wait... lead is poisonous...:eek:

If you are afraid of very low frequency EMF (you shouldn't be) better not use the following:
vacuum cleaner
electric stove
computer
baseboard heaters
hair dryer
power tools
cell phone
cordless phone
electricity
etc.

I'm not saying exteremely high EMF is not dangerous, just that EMF from an electric car is very small compared to may other sources that we encounter every day.

I've sat in a Prius with the gauges in hand to measure EMF and the alarm system was the worst thing, the drive train and inverter is all on the other side of a steel fire wall (better then a tin foil hat), next most harmful thing I saw in the car? the LDC screen that give you info about what the car is doing.

It's also laughable to be afraid of EMF in the context of driving which is without a doubt extremely dangerous. It's like saying "I won't fly in an aeroplane because we might get hit by an meteor."

You don't know what you're talking about.

Actually, I'm almost electric free. I leave breakers off on areas I don't use, gotten rid of cellphone, use a plug in (with cord) phone. I also barbeque all year round (using the stove as minimal as possible), no microwave, no hairdryer. The list goes on to eliminate what I perceive (since there is no definitive conclusion, which by the way, seems pretty peculiar in its own right) to be "non-beneficial" to a healthier lifestyle. You're argument has no merit. You make it nearly impossible for anyone to have a comment against EMF, using the angle that if you have any electrical device, you're a hypocrite (trap argument). BTW, you also thinks its ok to compound the problem with possibly more problems. Why have a half glass of poison when we can top it up with a full one, or, even have two. You see, I'm trying to eliminate problems, not add them. Feel free to do as you wish, but, don't state "opinions" as "facts".

Malus,
Factually speaking, what effect do EMFs have and by what mechanism do they cause these effects?
Strictly by the facts, low frequency EMFs are non-ionizing. Therefore, by definition, they cannot interfere with or cause chemical reactions. Additionally, in the frequency range applicable, they are not able to cause tissue heating (like microwaves or radiowaves). Finally, their ability to penetrate the skin is VERY limited.
Given the above facts (and they are verifiable, testable facts), how do low frequency EMFs adversely affect humans?

What gauges were those, a gaussmeter? A compass? a needle in a bowl of water?

I've had formal training in measuring EMFs and RF radiation and determining safe distances for controlled exposure and uncontrolled exposure. Anyone concerned about the level of EMFs in their Prius is either seriously under-informed or a complete raving lunatic. I'm hoping for most people it's the former. Given the prevelence of EMFs in the industrialized world, and that the Prius' steel body works as a Faraday cage, you'll find the overall exposure to electromagnetic fields much lower INSIDE the car than OUTSIDE. It works so well, in fact, that there is no FCC mandated rules concerning the power levels of mobile radio installations.. in other words, if you installed a big radio transmitter on your car, you wouldn't be able to supply it enough power to create a field large enough to worry about inside the car due to the shielding of the vehicle body. Also realize the strength of the field falls off at the inverse square of distance from the source. So if you double the distance, the strength will be 1/4. At the power levels inside the Prius, you are talking about being in negligible numbers within a few inches. I'm willing to bet even close proximity is well below acceptable limits.

I'm willing to bet the 50k-100k watt AM stations in most cities or the 60Hz power grid are subjecting you to a much larger power density in your everyday activities than you are receiving inside your Prius. I'd put money it's lower overall inside the car.

With that said.. People have been working in high RF and EMF environments for over 100 years now, enough to know that the only major danger is that of tissue heating.. that's just not going to happen in a Prius. Neither is your wifi going to have any effect. Safe exposure levels drop with increased frequency, however, and I do think it's prudent to limit cellphone usage (usually in the low microwave range) when you are holding it right against your head until we see some more information on that. But for low frequency fields, we've got tons and tons of data to know exactly what the effects will be- Negligible for most of humanity.

I don't know, when reputable sources are still trying to figure out the effects of EMF as well as try to set some sort of guidelines for exposure........

Hybrid Risk for Electromagnetic Fields Is Still Uncertain | Hybrid Cars

WHO | What is the International EMF Project?

WHO | Framework for developing health-based EMF standards

What I said doesn't contradict what the WHO is saying. We do need to research more closely the effects of *large* EMF fields, day in and day out, on the human body.. mostly to be prudent. Yes, higher frequency RF fields can impart more energy than lower ones, and the jury is still out on what mobile phones *in close proximity* do to things like brain tissue, since we know 2.4Ghz is particularly effective at heating water molecules. But, they are talking about significant sources of EMF. MRI machines, Power transmission lines and substations, radio transmitters, etc.

Those are *huge* orders of magnitude bigger than anything in a Prius.

We're all sitting in .3-.6 Gauss from the Earth's magnetic field anyway for our entire lives (unless you are an astronaut), and our ancestors have been since life began here.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from buying an electric hybrid. But, EMF's are a serious issue, not to be embraced so casually, especially if they are becoming more prevalent everyday and it's exposure compounding. Serious enough to be an issue with the WHO. Imagine if you will (you know, outside the box), if EMF's were deemed a serious health issue. Society would have to be rebuilt. People would be livid. Nope, better to say that "more conclusive research has to be done" and let it drift afloat for a time. For now, I'll look into bio-diesel or hydrogen, as it develops.

If you read the text of the WHO EMF project, they are concentrating on the large and powerful sources of EMF, not EMF from small electric motors shielded by steel or household appliances. They are also researching long term effects of low frequency EMF on health mainly to deal with "public concerns" although there is no evidence yet that supports these "concerns"

The benefits of electricity vastly outweigh the dangers.

From the WHO website Malus helpfully supplied:

How much more conclusive does it need to be?

Hybrids are just as safe as ice vehicles in terms of EMF and are safer by far if emissions are your concern.

Fixed.

Every now and then someone comes along who very very very obviously knows what he is talking about. I would say that JJW has demonstrated that he has a pretty solid working knowledge of EMF, to the extent that he is up to date on what the scientific community has to say about it. He has supplied numerical data that clearly demonstrates that levels of EMF inside of a hybrid are less dangerous than other sources people regularly get exposed to outside the car. Given that EMF sources have been around since electricity has been invented, and that the life span of the average human being has increased dramatically since then, I'd say we are pretty safe from ill effects of the mild EMFs out there.

On the list of things that freak the crap out of me, I'm more worried about diesel fumes, smog, inhaling scented oils from air fresheners, solar radiation, carcinogens in plastics being transferred to my foods, second hand smoke (cigarette and otherwise), lead poisoning holes in the ozone layer, global pollution, arsenic in the water supply (it occurs naturally), carbon monoxide and all the other things that are going to cause me to die of cancer or otherwise. Oh and I'm still at the bottom of the list. Let's face it, out of the potential causes of death and illness, why not focus on just avoiding the big ones instead of becoming paranoid of things that haven't been proven to do any harm? If you really go out of your way to avoid the truly harmful things along with the ones you don't understand/are unproven/exist in science fiction medical journals/are proclaimed harmful by religious groups like the Scientologists/are just too progressive for your stone-aged imagination, you'll end up living in the woods, wearing a tin foil hat and dying of cancer anyway. Or, if you like hybrids, go get one and drive it. You'll be fine, trust me.

Just to end this argument before it arises, No I'm not a champion for hybrids. I think they fuel they save doesn't justify the price you have to pay for them when you can get similar mileage out of a well driven Civic. So my assertions are not made out of bias.

Malus,
The fact that the WHO has decided to research EMF effects is not evidence for their being harmful. After the studies done back in the 1990s, most of the research being done today is more of an ongoing battle against junk science than anything else.
Natural sources of EMF and EM radiation are, on the whole, much more powerful and potentially hazardous (see reference).
I'll quote something I wrote in the other thread, "Being afraid of EMF in the quantities generated by an Insight is, statistically speaking, probably like worrying about a camel in Saudi Arabia, munching on grass near an airport runway, which happens to be contaminated with uranium dust produced by a mine 1,000 miles away, accidentally gets hooked on the landing gear of a 747, travels to your home town, walks to your house, spits in your eye and gives you cancer."

Malus - every post you make takes precious time off your life using that EMF-cesspool of a computer you're using... you'd better hurry up and make a valid point before you keel over, or find a brave soul willing to dictate so you can stand at a safe distance. If I were you I'd post in a place where you could at least make an impact on people and have a legacy...maybe someplace where people think its worth being as cautious as you are. This is a forum full of people who drive cars - far more statistically likely to cause bodily harm or death than everyday EMF exposure.

Are we done here?

...only with the FIRST-round of a 20-round match. :rolleyes:

I am......