EcoModder.com

EcoModder.com (https://ecomodder.com/forum/)
-   The Unicorn Corral (https://ecomodder.com/forum/unicorn-corral.html)
-   -   Trailer Tires on a Geo Metro ... (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/trailer-tires-geo-metro-24961.html)

orangebychoice 02-16-2013 03:59 AM

Trailer Tires on a Geo Metro ...
 
I know I will get some heat for this - but I've been doing some research (and didn't see any small cars running them here - just trucks) and I think it might work! They have stiffer sidewalls (for lower rolling resistance) and are way cheaper. Here's the points I thought of.

Pros:
I drive 55-65 max anyway so speed isn't an issue
I think the ride couldn't get much worse
The load rating on a trailer tire is higher then a passenger car
Easier to find 12" size in a trailer tire

Cons:
Trailer tires (supposedly) don't have the same quality regulations
Trailer tires on the front could make steering difficult at low speed
Trailer tires say 'for trailer use only' and could be an insurance liability

Okay, so flame on - why isn't everybody doing this??:confused:

mcrews 02-16-2013 05:47 AM

welcome.
There must be 10-15 extensive threads here on taller tires. Did you search?
What sixe do you currently have?
what size are you looking at?

MTXA 02-16-2013 09:57 AM

Assuming you are looking at radial because bias is a whole nother can of worms.

The stiffer sidewall will negatively effect braking and cornering.

Trailer tires are not manufactured for wet conditions.

Trailer tires are notoriously difficult to balance.

I've pondered the same thing. I'd give it a try for a car that sees low speed urban driving or largely rural roads under 55mph. I don't think I would feel safe in faster congested traffic.

CapriRacer 02-16-2013 10:25 AM

Mcrews,

The OP (orange) is talking about TRAILER tires, not "taller" tires. Tires that go on a vehicle you pull behind a tow vehicle.

Orange,

First, let me clear up a couple of mis-conceptions:

Rolling resistance is much, much more about tread compound than anything else. Sidewall stiffness is such a minor player you can pretty much ignore it.

Trailer tires are done differently than car tires. Since trailer tires don't have to steer or drive the vehicle, the affects of side forces and torsional forces allow the tires to be rated at higher load carrying capacities than car tires. Put another way, if you compare the load rating of trailer tires with any tire designed for a powered vehicle, you'll notice the trailer tire is rated for a higher load carrying capacity.

Notice that trailer tires are designated differently than car tires. They either have a different size nomenclature (like 4.80-12, or 20.5X8.0-10) or they have letters in front of or behind the size to indicate the type of service the tire was designed for (like ST205/75R15).

Because of the service, trailer tires aren't concerned much about traction or treadwear. Many trailers don't have brakes. Also, trailer tires tend to get old before the tread is worn off. As a result, the tread compound in these tires isn't designed with those properties in mind.

What is the major design factor? Cost!! That means that the tread compound - the thing that is going to have the largest affect on rolling resistance - is going to be a low cost, low tech rubber. Rolling resistance is not even in the consideration.

So assuming you could properly navigate through tire size and load rating, you'd find that a trailer tire will have a major deficiency in either traction, treadwear or rolling resistance (or more than one.)

That's why trailer tires aren't used on cars and trucks.

- and since the demand for these types of tires is small compared to cars and trucks, trailer tires are made by what I would call 3rd tier tire manufacturers - not the major tire manufacturers (with one exception, which is an interesting study in itself). Needless to say, there are issues with these tires.

MTXA 02-16-2013 10:45 AM

Disclaimer
 
When I wrote that I would give it a try, it would be based on three things

1. 12" car tires appear to becoming obsolete. Trailer tires may become the only choice

2. A large percentage of my driving is on flat, straight, under 35 mph, lightly traveled roads and I'm a pretty conservative driver

3. Nobody has ever accused me of being wrapped real tight

Ryland 02-16-2013 12:19 PM

The only car I've driven with trailer tires was a Honda N600 and with trailer tires on it had lousy handling and that was in a car that seldom is driven over 40mph, switching to real car tires made the car driveable! it drives and handles like a real car, at least as good as my parents Geo Metro!
Real tires made it feel like you had control going around corners, small bumps in the road didn't make you feel like you were going to die and you had traction! it was amazing what real car tires can do, I'm not sure I would use a trailer tire even as a spare tire if I had to go over 25mph, granted that car has 10" rims, so there was only one option we could find for real tires for it and they were back ordered for a few months, but I'm pretty sure that if we could find 10" car tires that you can find more then a few 12" tire options.
Your other option of course is to get 13" geo metro rims.

mcrews 02-16-2013 11:30 PM

my bad.
it does belong in unicorn,

orangebychoice 02-21-2013 01:56 AM

Thanks for the help! I can see the pros and cons - and really it seems like a catch 22. I'll stay with regular tires (they're not THAT hard to find, just harder) ... either way I think I can find safer ways ecomod. I'm working on doing a belly pan - so I think I'll just head in that direction for now! Make sure to check out the pictures of the new Geo when I get them up!

:thumbup:

justme1969 02-21-2013 09:57 AM

Been there did it Had no choice but liked the results.
94?xfi I had in mid 90s I ran may pops lost a tire near Yuma Arizona.
Other side on rear had big blisters had no spare due to large speaker in that locale.
Hardware place had 2 that were a little narrow but would fit the Geo wheels.
He mounted them with hand tools no balancing and moved good tire up front.
Put them on the back. worked awesome! 50 psi never had probblem.
rear tires outlived set of Invictas I put on front a year later.
Geo rear brakes are an afterthought. the narrow tire with z stripe tread pattern cut through standing water better than the invictas with enginne weight and wind down force on them could clearly see the tread through front tire marking behind car.
I tried them on front 1x not good scarey sliding stop that I thought would never end and found out a xfi Geo could now burn out!
Much harder compound too hard for front end.

oil pan 4 02-21-2013 04:28 PM

12'' car tires are a dead rim size, 13'' car tires are a dieing rim size.

some_other_dave 02-21-2013 05:15 PM

There are specialty manufacturers who offer tires in "retro" sizes. Coker Tire carries quite a few of them. I know that Vredestien makes some sizes that are now hard to find as well.

-soD

rmay635703 02-21-2013 07:48 PM

Its too bad really, the best cars came with 10-13" tires.

slowmover 02-22-2013 10:19 PM

Outstanding, Barry!

ST tires are also never to be mounted on passenger-carrying vehicle, a warning you'll find all over the place. I value my travel trailer highly (and will switch away from ST tires, shortly, as the failure rate is unacceptable), but my life more highly. The lives of my passengers even higher still.

Premium, long-lived tires are the best choice, IMO as a few tenths means nothing compared to several tens of thousands of miles of longer life (where that choice is possible).

.

Christ 02-22-2013 11:25 PM

I tend to do exactly the opposite - put car tires on trailers. Usually in the 13'' variety, unless the trailer needs a higher load rating, then I go to 15''. Now I just need to find 15'' ring mounts to replace all the 14.5'' ones I have now.

rmay635703 02-24-2013 01:28 PM

I guess this thread brings me to a strange question.

My fathers enclosed trailer has 15" trailer tires, they are very old and in very good shape, we had one that had to be replaced because it kept leaking by the rim, we remounted an old tire from our buick after a good cleaning and dousing with rim sealant.

They have many miles, have always sat in the sun and are not weather checked and also have decent tread. They also have 4 ply sidewalls, I have not seen that in normal passenger car varieties.

My question is why is it when I go to buy a trailer tire it costs significantly more than a normal car tire?

This makes no sense if they are total crap.

I always thought trailer tires were
1. Bias
2. HD rated thick and heavy (for high weight ratings)
3. Designed for longer storage time.

Is this how old tires were or certain brands or what is the deal?

My father has an old trailer we use for brush and whatnot and the 8" trailer tires are over 35 years old and still work OK and look pretty good.

Just curious.

Also I have used trailer tires and space savers on my C-car, bad ride but they seemed to work good enough in that application.

Must be the influx of cheap chinese trailer tires or something making them garbage.

Cheers
Ryan

CapriRacer 02-24-2013 03:10 PM

Ryan,

There are a lot of questions in your post and inorder to answer them we need to start with apples to apples comparsions.

First, an ST trailer tire carries considerably more load than a comparably sized passenger car tires (Don't forget to reduce the Passnger car tire load rating by a factor of 1.1)

ST trailer tires are much more like LT tires - and if you compare the prices of ST tires to LT tires, you'll find the ST tires are cheaper.

But part of the problem is that there is very little overlap among these 3 types of tires.

Also, some trailers are used such that any particular tires will "work" - slow speeds, light loads, etc - but if you subject them to types of things passenger car tires are subjected to - eg 80 mph - trailer tires will fail in short order.

War_Wagon 02-24-2013 08:34 PM

I'd be concerned about liability just as much as safety. If you got into an accident, even one that wasn't your fault, and the insurance company found you were driving on tires not meant to be used on a passenger car - man you'd be up poop creek without a paddle. It's really not worth the risk!

rmay635703 02-25-2013 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by War_Wagon (Post 358151)
I'd be concerned about liability just as much as safety. If you got into an accident, even one that wasn't your fault, and the insurance company found you were driving on tires not meant to be used on a passenger car - man you'd be up poop creek without a paddle. It's really not worth the risk!

What if my car was designed to use trailer tires (aka I own several that came with stock 4 ply bias )

War_Wagon 02-26-2013 04:11 AM

Hmmm. Well if you had documentation from the auto manufacturer that said those tires were appropriate for your cars, then I guess you'd be off the hook. But I don't think a low count bias ply tire and a trailer tire are the same thing. At least not today. But if you took a modern, mainstream consumer car like a Metro and put modern trailer tires on it, then I stand by my statement about being up poop creek. Don't get me wrong, I like the budget alternative to any solution, but when it gets into stuff like skirting the edge of "legally safe", man I'd rather err on the side of caution.

CapriRacer 02-26-2013 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 358363)
What if my car was designed to use trailer tires (aka I own several that came with stock 4 ply bias )

I agree with WarWagon. But I would add that your statement is absurd. No car would be designed for trailer tires. There is a reason they are called "Trailer tires" and not "Passenger Car tires". There are designations that preclude the use of trailer tires on cars.

There may be some tires that COULD be used on trailers - AND - could be used on cars - BUT - more likely the combination would be trailer and truck.

And one last thought: 4 ply bias doesn't say anything about the tire except its construction. That is not enough information to determine what service the tire was designed for.

320touring 02-26-2013 07:30 AM

The original Austin Mini came with 12" wheels on later models.

there's a fairly good network of tyre suppliers for them over in the UK/Europe- sourcing a set shouldnt be too difficult..

Christ 02-26-2013 10:02 PM

You can still get DOT legal super-wide 12'' low-profile tires on eBay.. that doesn't really help you, but it is what it is.

rubenova 06-23-2013 05:02 PM

Trailer tires on a car is a good question. I had a 72 Nova with a tired 307 and TH350, 2.73:1 and 14" tires. My 20 year old mind came to the conclusion that a close ratio Muncie 4 speed would boost the mpg and while I was at it a new stock 350 would give a little more torque. The 350 bolted up no problem. Going from an automatic to manual was not so easy. Anyway the old combo was good for 15mpg and could be outrun by 4 cylinder front wheel drive imports. The 350/4speed could go 60mph in 1st and 21mpg on the interstate. The weird thing was in town the best it would do was 11mpg...and tricky to launch...bog or spin were the options from a standing start. A buddy of mine worked at an aluminum horse trailer builder and had access to tires...cheap. Soon there were 8ply bias ply's on all four corners. It didn't hurt the mpg but would flat spot overnight and thump along for a few miles until warm. Another trait was that there was almost no sideways grip when turning. This was actually pretty fun in the rain and I could walk the car sideways around corners at 20-40 mph with complete control...I believe the kids now call this "drifting." I killed them on a trip to California where running about 100mph from just east of San Francisco to LA on I5. They developed an imbalance that couldn't be balanced out. My advice is run them if you want but understand ...they have almost no adhesion to the road, braking, turning or accelerating!

CapriRacer 06-24-2013 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubenova (Post 377518)
Trailer tires on a car is a good question...... Soon there were 8ply bias ply's on all four corners. It didn't hurt the mpg but would flat spot overnight and thump along for a few miles until warm. Another trait was that there was almost no sideways grip when turning. This was actually pretty fun in the rain and I could walk the car sideways around corners at 20-40 mph with complete control...I believe the kids now call this "drifting." I killed them on a trip to California where running about 100mph from just east of San Francisco to LA on I5. They developed an imbalance that couldn't be balanced out. My advice is run them if you want but understand ...they have almost no adhesion to the road, braking, turning or accelerating!

To expand on this: Trailer tires are commonly restricted to 65 mph. They are also built more like LT tires - tires for heavy duty pickup trucks. They have no provision for traction.

Using trailer tires on a car or truck is a terrible idea.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com