underground but not a fossil
 

Wells! Wells are being bored all over. Natural Hydrogen seems to be a coming thing.
Before today I hadn't heard that there could be exploitable amounts of hydrogen underground. This week's issue of Science magazine (vol. 379 17 February 2023) has an article: "Hidden Hydrogen" which is a long story about all the people and places that are being examined for natural hydrogen. There is a village in Mali now powered by hydrogen gas from a 100 meter deep well (via a internal combustion engine driving a generator for electricity). There is an exploratory well near Geneva, Nebraska. One planned for the Pyrenees for next year. Lots of exploration in south Australia. The first scientific discussion of natural hydrogen is from Dmitri Mendeleev. In 1888 he reported hydrogen seeping in a coal mine in Ukraine.
Hydrogen seeps are believed to be the cause of geological depressions called "Fairy Circles" and there are fairy circles in North Carolina, Brazil, Russia, and Mali.

Using a simple way to estimate how much hydrogen there could be, based on a method developed by the oil industry, researchers at the USGS say the model comes up with a range centered on a trillion tons of H2.

It is believed that most of the hydrogen comes from serpentinization, which is an on-going process. It could be stimulated by pumping water into iron-rich rocks.

Hydrogen mine promoters are pushing "this is the next energy boom" bigger than oil or fracking or anything.
I think it might come together about the time Fusion power generators need more hydrogen. Some time between 20 years and never.
-mort

It will probably be about as big as geo thermal energy.
The oil companies make hydrogen at tremendous cost for hydrocracking, if they could drill a hole and get it out of the ground which is kind of their thing they would have by now.

Lizard-people!

hydrogen storage
 

In the not too distant past, hydrogen storage was an issue.
As the 'smallest' atom, hydrogen was capable of escaping through the walls of any vessel it was stored in.
There was a promising carbon nano-structure which was capable of 'holding' the gas, but to get it back out required heating the vessel, adding entropy to the 'system' and reducing its market viability.
I believe that California's 'Hydrogen Highway' ( Gov. Arnold Shwarzenegger ) relies on natural gas as the feed stock.
Rather than attempt to store significant amounts of gas onsite, SHELL and TrueZero equipment harvests the gas from a PP&G natural gas pipeline, then a high-pressure compressor forces it into the Toyota or Honda fuel cell at 700-bar, and $45-$50 a fill.
MOTOR TREND's Toyota Mirai has averaged 67.8-mpg over 13,822-miles.

There's nothing economical about hydrogen.

'economical'
 

The only argument I've heard in favor of hydrogen as a 'motor' fuel has to do with the inability to charge BEVs at apartments.
Apartment dwellers have the capability to drive an 'electric' car via hydrogen fuel cell cars, fueled by hydrogen.
The fossil fuel folks like it because they'll provide the natural gas, typically used today, to create the hydrogen.
TrueZero has tripled the number of stations in California.
Five years of hydrogen costs $ 15,000 right now ( Toyota Mirai XLE ), averaging 331-miles / tank.

Last time I checked hydrogen was $15 per kg at retail.
Toyota claims their hydrogen car goes 50 to 70 miles on 1kg.
Gouge your eyes out cost per mile is one of the many reasons I think hydrogen sucks.

'kilogram'
 

It would be helpful to people like me if a ' kilogram' of hydrogen was defined in terms of a gallon of gasoline-equivalency, as kilowatt-hours are done, so I could better wrap my head around it.

"A pint's a pound the World around" said someone.

Imperial to Metric left as an exercise. Better to compare BTUs.

'said someone'
 

'The closer you get to death, the less life you have, but you still have more!
(unknown)
' You better slice that pizza into four slices. I don't think I can eat six!'
Yogi Berra
' I may talk slow, but I am stupid.' Woody Harrelson, Cheers

"Meanwhile I’d like to propose that really the universe is made of 100 percent dark humour. " Sabine Hossenfelder [5:47]

Oh that's savage.

Some 20 years ago I used to be more optimistic about hydrogen as a motor fuel, yet I became more skeptical about it around 2004. Biodiesel, ethanol and natural gas (eventually also considering biomethane) sound more realistic to me in a 3rd-world country.


Where in Brazil? Never heard about it.

But what about...

https://images.everydayhealth.com/im...g-1440x810.jpg

Seems to be more of an issue with petroleum than with methane or other gases. Not to mention they're trapped inside rocky caverns (well, sort of) which might have some sort of structural integrity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRP5mQfmN5g&t=6s

Beneath the heart of North America lies an ancient treasure—the Midcontinent Rift, a billion-year-old geological wonder that could revolutionize our energy future. Scientists in Nebraska are uncovering its incredible potential to produce natural hydrogen—clean, renewable, and carbon-free. This process, happening naturally in volcanic rock formations, offers the promise of sustainable energy for centuries. Join us as we dive deep into this extraordinary discovery, exploring the cutting-edge research, engineering marvels, and the global implications of unlocking the hydrogen economy. From Nebraska to the world, this is the story of turning Earth's ancient scars into a beacon of hope for a greener, cleaner future.

IIRC Palladium is good at holding and releasing hydrogen.|
yep:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...69702111701432
No idea how practical it is?

3-5000 feet isn't too deep (the record is 40,000) but maybe this is an opportunity for Quaise?

newatlas.com/energy/quaise-deep-geothermal-drilling-questions/

I say bugger all this high pressure bottling! Pipe it up and put it through a (modded) diesel genset if that's all you have! :)
(You need to 'retard the timing' and turbo n stuff at high concentrations)

Especially if you can use the heat..! Engines become waaay! more efficient if you're heating your house and hot water.
With big gensets one could warm/farm dairy, poultry, piggery and veg etc, in normally 'too cold' areas.
(Yes I do see a glasshouse full of Bud in Siberia or somewhere! :) )

Put a vid on YouTube and someone will come running with a fuel cell too! :)

Can you say hydrogen embrittlement? Issue that I see mostly with hydrogen fuel is that it escapes whatever container/ transport system you store it in by either embrittlement fractures or escaping past the seals.

I can say:
Don't pressurise it.
Don't store it.
Use it immediately and mixed with air and at the lower pressures.
Then transport it, as electricity, in a wire.

Wait-a-minute:
Isn't that what I already said..?
Let me check.....
Yes... yes it does seem to be what I already said..??? :)

It's one of the reasons why I still consider ethanol and natural gas more realistic for the average Joe.

"I can say:
Don't pressurise it.
Don't store it."

Chemically storing it AFAIK, is the answer, mostly except for the process is slow both ways, and mass quantities take up relatively massive space.

You do still have the embrittlement issue in your transport hardware. Not sure if silicone has that issue

Most likely, silicone will still have the embrittlement issue.

Most of the silicone we had for space use 50 years ago was one off expensive stuff but generally RTV that you can now buy commercially. Glued the solar cells to the skin of the satellite which was an exotic binder but still fiberglass. Expected life was unknown but longer than sattelite

Problems we had with silicon was no structural strength, couldn't use it to build things just stick them together or seal stuff.

i checked: You're correct:
Hydrogen Embrittlement is an issue in engines at the concentrations we're speaking about here.
Especially the intake valve apparently.

I thought you were either talking about coating storage tanks with silicone in order to make some sort of barrier to prevent Hydrogen to escape, or to make something analogue to those gas bags which were used in Europe during WWII as a fuel storage for vehicles running on coal gas.

All that and more: silicone tubing for transfer, control pucks, what have you.

Ok so here's Mr Oil Well Driller, newly Mr Hydrogen Well Driller.
He drills and hits a huge hydrogen cavern.
Waaay!!!

But where to store it?
Um... how about exactly where it is atm? It seems to have worked pretty well so far...
All we need to do is put in a big plastic pipe with a tap in the top.

Ok, but how to transport it?
Send it through a fuel cell to turn it into electricity. Put the electricity into the grid. That way everyone has insti transport as soon as they plug things in.
Things like EVs

ie: As much as it'd be nice to drive around on it like gasolene, if we want to use it right now, is there a better way..?

Use it for hydrostatic lift and eliminate microplastic pollution from tires?

Yes, Make Airships Great Again.

:)
IIRC there's actually a paper on that and using prevailing winds.

I don't recall what they had to say about the fact that your blimp is slowly deflating, or how to get it back again.

Ah!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...6031992306144X

Isn't 0.25 bar a vacuum?
I'm in favor.

A prolate spheroid tensegrity shell, for a rigid airship, with a hydrogen bladder suspended inside. The hydrogen would be hot at ~1 bar, and the intervening space would have pure steam. It has lift approximating helium's but modulating the heat would give vertical control authority.

The steam would also maintain the temperature of the hydrgen (in it's graphene bladder).