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Gasoline Fumes 10-21-2009 06:38 AM

Uses for a small Kubota diesel?
 
I have a 4.5 HP Kubota diesel engine (EL300-AR). It was originally from one of those flashing highway arrows. What should I do with it? I saw it on craigslist earlier this year and couldn't say no. I was thinking bike or trike, but that might never happen. I could make a generator, but that's no fun to ride. :turtle:

It's tempting to run it on WVO, but I'm not sure how tolerant it is of that stuff.

Piwoslaw 10-21-2009 09:15 AM

If it's not too big or heavy, maybe a range-extending generator for an EV or hybrid? Assuming you already have one, of course ;)

bestclimb 10-21-2009 10:54 AM

aux power for a small sailboat?

RobertSmalls 10-21-2009 11:12 AM

Here's a half-baked idea for a 15HP diesel engine: you could do a gasoline/diesel hybrid. Have the engine drive a fifth wheel located beneath the cargo floor of your Civic wagon. Use the gas engine when you need to go 0-60 in less than a minute, and use the diesel for cruising. It's a poor man's cylinder deactivation / bi-fuel scheme.

However, 4.5HP will give NEV-like performance in any road car. 40mph, tops. 0-30, eventually.

In order to achieve highway speeds, you're going to need a streamlined, two- or three-wheeled vehicle, preferably under 500lbs.

dcb 10-21-2009 11:19 AM

It would be killer on my moped :)

Gasoline Fumes 10-21-2009 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 135053)
It would be killer on my moped :)

It's 2 feet long and weighs 100 lbs. ;)

Gasoline Fumes 10-21-2009 11:59 AM

One of the reasons I might not build a trike is the difficulty of finding a suitable transmission. With a max RPM of 2000, it's going to need multiple gears to acheive a respectable cruising speed and still be able to accelerate. I have a 3-speed lawnmower gearbox that would be OK, but it's designed for a vertical shaft engine and is grease-lubed. My other concern is MPG. I'd hate to go through the trouble of building something and then find out it gets only 61 MPG and has a top speed of 34 MPH. It would have to get about 100 MPG and go 50 MPH for me to build it.

Doofus McFancypants 10-22-2009 08:02 AM

i would second the WVO generator setup for range extender.
At that RPM you are not going to get much direct drive applications without some customer parts.

Frank Lee 10-23-2009 12:51 AM

It would be the ultimate "cruise engine"- get up to cruise speed, activate Kubota, shut down regular engine, sip! (might need a sub-Metro sized vehicle to do that on though)

Christ 10-23-2009 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasoline Fumes (Post 135061)
One of the reasons I might not build a trike is the difficulty of finding a suitable transmission. With a max RPM of 2000, it's going to need multiple gears to acheive a respectable cruising speed and still be able to accelerate. I have a 3-speed lawnmower gearbox that would be OK, but it's designed for a vertical shaft engine and is grease-lubed. My other concern is MPG. I'd hate to go through the trouble of building something and then find out it gets only 61 MPG and has a top speed of 34 MPH. It would have to get about 100 MPG and go 50 MPH for me to build it.

Why such high expectations? What do you have that even comes close to rivaling that now?

Being more realistic, 61MPG on diesel which is basically free (if you make it yourself) is still a sight better than 100 MPG on $3.00 a gallon gasoline.

Average cost of BD when you make it at home, and using free WVO to make it, is about 90 cents a gallon, last I heard. At the price of the gas station next door, $2.70 a gallon for gasoline, I'd have to get 90MPG gasoline to match 30MPG diesel.

Your speed limitation isn't really all that realistic, either, I think. How many days do you really HAVE to go 50 MPH? Could you not suffice with 35-40 MPH?

Beyond that, there are many things you can do to increase the power output once you've built the project and gotten it working. Later on, you can streamline it, change gear ratios, increase output and efficiency with a small turbo, etc.

Build it, then worry about the details. Very few peopele actually stick to all of their goals when building something one-off. Compromise is necessary until the thing can be considered "tangible".

Gasoline Fumes 10-24-2009 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 135417)
Why such high expectations? What do you have that even comes close to rivaling that now?

I have a moped that does 30 MPH and should get around 100 MPG. And I'm working on a '94 Metro that will hopefully get 60+ MPG.

Quote:

Your speed limitation isn't really all that realistic, either, I think. How many days do you really HAVE to go 50 MPH? Could you not suffice with 35-40 MPH?
I thought 50 MPH was slow. :) In the rural area I live in, it would take forever to get anywhere at 35 MPH.

Quote:

Beyond that, there are many things you can do to increase the power output once you've built the project and gotten it working. Later on, you can streamline it, change gear ratios, increase output and efficiency with a small turbo, etc.
From what I understand, turbos don't work too well with single cylinder engines. I'm sure there's some extra power in the engine if I increase the governed speed and turn up the fuel, but I wouldn't expect a lot more output from it.

Quote:

Build it, then worry about the details. Very few peopele actually stick to all of their goals when building something one-off. Compromise is necessary until the thing can be considered "tangible".
I still want to build it, but it's not really a priority right now.

Gasoline Fumes 10-24-2009 06:40 AM

If it made more power, I'd be very tempted to try making a pusher trailer with maybe a hydrostatic mower transmission. Make it radio-controlled so it would work in any vehicle. :)

And no trailer registration in NY if it's a "generator" that doesn't haul anything. :thumbup:

Piwoslaw 10-24-2009 10:34 AM

Today I was thinking about a small 3-5HP pusher.
Say you have FWD car and you could add a small pusher to the rear wheels which you turn on when cruising. It probably wouldn't have enough power to sustain your speed, but add P&G and EOC with the main drivetrain and you've got one loooooong coast, plus a faster pulse.

Christ 10-24-2009 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasoline Fumes (Post 135655)
If it made more power, I'd be very tempted to try making a pusher trailer with maybe a hydrostatic mower transmission. Make it radio-controlled so it would work in any vehicle. :)

And no trailer registration in NY if it's a "generator" that doesn't haul anything. :thumbup:

That would be pretty pimp.

Turbos do work with single cylinder engines, but not very well. Guys put them on lawn mowers all the time, but they really prefer to have several exhaust pulses rather than just expanding gasses. I had assumed it was a 2 cylinder 2 cycle. If you had mentioned otherwise, my apologies.

I live in a rural area of PA not far from you... It takes me about 4 minutes longer to get to my dad's house if I drive 45 versus 55. The difference is that if I drive 45, I get to "see" things better. Sure, it's the same route every weekend (9.9 miles). But I get to pay attention to all the little changes that nature has this way of making you notice and appreciate when you take the time to look and recognize. Maybe you're not interested in that, but I surely am.

Beyond the pusher trailer, I'm not really sure what to use it for, honestly. You could do an EV and use it for a genset, which it's obviously equipped for.

That'll be another issue if you use it for motive duty... you'll have to figure out the governor, because it won't like to rev up and down without smoking. It'll want to stay at a specific pre-determined RPM for best output and efficiency. GenSet should be the key, even on a pusher trailer, as a range extender.

dcb 10-24-2009 11:17 AM

It would keep a small aerodynamic trike moving along at a good clip too, with the motorcycle tires.

Gotta get the gearing right too.

Gasoline Fumes 10-25-2009 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 135667)
I live in a rural area of PA not far from you... It takes me about 4 minutes longer to get to my dad's house if I drive 45 versus 55. The difference is that if I drive 45, I get to "see" things better. Sure, it's the same route every weekend (9.9 miles). But I get to pay attention to all the little changes that nature has this way of making you notice and appreciate when you take the time to look and recognize. Maybe you're not interested in that, but I surely am.

I am definitely interested in nature, but I can ride a bicycle or moped if I want to look around more. Or take a walk in the woods.

It's about 4 miles to town from my house, which is fine at lower speeds. But most other places worth going to are 30-50 miles away. And my parents are about 70 miles away.

4 minutes each way every weekend? You're "wasting" almost 7 hours a year! :D

Quote:

That'll be another issue if you use it for motive duty... you'll have to figure out the governor, because it won't like to rev up and down without smoking. It'll want to stay at a specific pre-determined RPM for best output and efficiency. GenSet should be the key, even on a pusher trailer, as a range extender.
I was thinking I could just shift through the gears at a fixed RPM since it's a governor, not a throttle. Just leave it at maybe 1500-2000 RPM and adjust it once up to cruising speed. I'm assuming this would work at the low RPM of this engine.

I have no idea what to do for a clutch. Right now it just has a pulley driving a 12v alternator.

Gasoline Fumes 10-25-2009 06:59 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/09...300ARspecs.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/09...L300ARperf.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/09...EL300ARdim.jpg

Christ 10-25-2009 12:00 PM

RE: Clutch - Visit a Tractor Supply Co. store, they have centrifugal clutches. If you just want somthing simple to drive, that will do it, and they have them for like $30 that can handle 10 HP, IIRC.

You could use the governor, but engine speed control is much more likely to get you a desirable result. If you have enough gears, of course, or a CVT pulley, that will net you better results than even a throttle control would, as you could run CVT into a normal gearbox, which gives you basically Infinitely Variable ratios. (IVT).

If you don't mind using belts, and you are any good at fabrication, you can make a CVT pulley with V-belts and pulley cogs. If you want to see one, go to any place that sells MTD tractor parts, and ask them for a "transmission pulley" or CVT pulley. They call it both.

It's a double cone that slides in the middle of a wide standard pulley, which changes the open diameter on either side of the double cone. If one side is input, and the other is output, you have variable drive ratios. It's a simple "hydrostatic" transmission setup that MTD and Craftsman used to use, and may still be using.

dcb 10-25-2009 12:06 PM

Drive the wheels with a belt, and lever to control the tension on the belt will get you started too, via idler pully. That is how my 3.5 hp snowblower worked.

RobertSmalls 10-25-2009 09:43 PM

Oh, I love data.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasoline Fumes (Post 135857)

That is a super-flat BSFC curve. I guess that should be expected from this sort of diesel, though.

The tragedy here is that the BSFC is consistently underwhelming. 210g/HP*hr is the same as 282g/KWh for the diesels you'll find here, or 277g/KWh for the gassers. Bottom line, at 27.8% efficiency, this Kubota is about as efficient as a garden-variety engine with fuel economy gearing, but much less efficient than any of the special engines out there - TDI, lean burn, Prius.

I like the idea of an underpowered, efficient small diesel for cruising, plus a large gas engine for accelerating, hill climbing, etc. However, this is not the correct engine.

Gasoline Fumes 10-25-2009 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 135882)
RE: Clutch - Visit a Tractor Supply Co. store, they have centrifugal clutches. If you just want somthing simple to drive, that will do it, and they have them for like $30 that can handle 10 HP, IIRC.

You could use the governor, but engine speed control is much more likely to get you a desirable result. If you have enough gears, of course, or a CVT pulley, that will net you better results than even a throttle control would, as you could run CVT into a normal gearbox, which gives you basically Infinitely Variable ratios. (IVT).

If you don't mind using belts, and you are any good at fabrication, you can make a CVT pulley with V-belts and pulley cogs. If you want to see one, go to any place that sells MTD tractor parts, and ask them for a "transmission pulley" or CVT pulley. They call it both.

It's a double cone that slides in the middle of a wide standard pulley, which changes the open diameter on either side of the double cone. If one side is input, and the other is output, you have variable drive ratios. It's a simple "hydrostatic" transmission setup that MTD and Craftsman used to use, and may still be using.

What RPM do the centrifugal clutches engage at? I thought it was 2000+ RPM. Can the cheap ones be taken apart to replace the springs?

Thanks for the CVT pulley tip! I'll start by looking next time I'm at the junkyards. Plenty of mowers there.

How efficient are belts compared to chains or gears? I'd think belts have a lot more friction.

Gasoline Fumes 10-25-2009 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 135884)
Drive the wheels with a belt, and lever to control the tension on the belt will get you started too, via idler pully. That is how my 3.5 hp snowblower worked.

I've thought about a belt clutch, but I'm concerned about belt life if it's used too often. It's definitely the easy way. :)

Christ 10-26-2009 12:14 AM

Are you close to Binghamton? Gary's U Pull It has lawnmowers and fork lifts all the time that you could rob parts from.

The CVT pulleys, you can change the stall speed a couple of ways - You can either change the spring (it's a collar spring that's brazed together on the ends) or you can drill and re-weight the weights. I personally prefer using heavier weights than changing springs.

The key is to keep all the weights the same, or within a few grams. You disassemble, remove the weights, drill the bottoms of them about 1/2" deep x 1/2" diameter, and start filling them with either molten lead or something similar (Shot will work, as well, with tape over it for a short time, just to test). Make sure your holes are all in the same places on the weights, and keep them within a few grams of each other, for best results.

Obviously, a heavier set of weights = more centripetal force applied to the spring and better grip on the clutch's outer pulley.

So, yes, you can rebuild the cheap ones.

Gasoline Fumes 10-26-2009 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls (Post 135945)
Oh, I love data.That is a super-flat BSFC curve. I guess that should be expected from this sort of diesel, though.

The tragedy here is that the BSFC is consistently underwhelming. 210g/HP*hr is the same as 282g/KWh for the diesels you'll find here, or 277g/KWh for the gassers. Bottom line, at 27.8% efficiency, this Kubota is about as efficient as a garden-variety engine with fuel economy gearing, but much less efficient than any of the special engines out there - TDI, lean burn, Prius.

I like the idea of an underpowered, efficient small diesel for cruising, plus a large gas engine for accelerating, hill climbing, etc. However, this is not the correct engine.

What are ways to increase the BSFC of a diesel? Due to a very tight budget, it's this Kubota, a Mercedes-Benz 5-cyl turbodiesel or a Suzuki/Geo 3-cyl.

Christ 10-26-2009 12:28 AM

Go w/ the MB 5 cyl TD motor. You'll appreciate it in the long run. Also, the 3 cylinder engines can be had for like... $100 or less on good days. Most people that have them and want to sell them only want to sell them because they have the "4 cylinder" mentality... funny that the G10 and G13 only had like a 4 HP difference, though. Remember, it's got more cylinders, it's got to be better. ;)

Gasoline Fumes 10-26-2009 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 135974)
Are you close to Binghamton? Gary's U Pull It has lawnmowers and fork lifts all the time that you could rob parts from.

The CVT pulleys, you can change the stall speed a couple of ways - You can either change the spring (it's a collar spring that's brazed together on the ends) or you can drill and re-weight the weights. I personally prefer using heavier weights than changing springs.

The key is to keep all the weights the same, or within a few grams. You disassemble, remove the weights, drill the bottoms of them about 1/2" deep x 1/2" diameter, and start filling them with either molten lead or something similar (Shot will work, as well, with tape over it for a short time, just to test). Make sure your holes are all in the same places on the weights, and keep them within a few grams of each other, for best results.

Obviously, a heavier set of weights = more centripetal force applied to the spring and better grip on the clutch's outer pulley.

So, yes, you can rebuild the cheap ones.

I'm about 2 hours North of Binghamton. I usually go to the Pick-n-Pull in Auburn or Trout's in Waterloo.

OK, weights over springs. Makes sense.

Gasoline Fumes 10-26-2009 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christ (Post 135979)
Go w/ the MB 5 cyl TD motor. You'll appreciate it in the long run. Also, the 3 cylinder engines can be had for like... $100 or less on good days. Most people that have them and want to sell them only want to sell them because they have the "4 cylinder" mentality... funny that the G10 and G13 only had like a 4 HP difference, though. Remember, it's got more cylinders, it's got to be better. ;)

I was half kidding about the Merc engine, it's way too big for what I want to do.

G10 makes 55 HP.
SOHC 8-valve G13 makes 70 HP.
DOHC G13 makes 100 HP.

I have some of each. :D
Besides more power, the 4-cyl is much smoother. The G10 is a pretty shaky engine.

Christ 10-26-2009 01:09 AM

I love the G10s, though. So I was a little off on the power figures... :P Still, the perception there is that the 4 cylinder is universally better. I've driven both, and I have to beg difference there.

I love the 3 cylinder because it's a super-mouse. It's got a decent torque curve that makes it feel "larger than life" for it's size.

Gasoline Fumes 10-26-2009 01:39 AM

I love the G10 too. I'm working on two '94 Metros. One keeps its G10 and the other gets the DOHC 4-cyl engine.

bgd73 10-26-2009 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasoline Fumes (Post 135030)
I have a 4.5 HP Kubota diesel engine (EL300-AR). It was originally from one of those flashing highway arrows. What should I do with it? I saw it on craigslist earlier this year and couldn't say no. I was thinking bike or trike, but that might never happen. I could make a generator, but that's no fun to ride. :turtle:

It's tempting to run it on WVO, but I'm not sure how tolerant it is of that stuff.


A diesel with 4.5 hp..
what is the torque number?
I remember driving a tractor called "suzue", little 2cyl AWD diesel. That had a crazy low hp number, but could pull the truck out of a field, and run pto in what looked like an 8 foot wide triple bladed bush-hog lawn cutter type deck. One of my first lessons about numbers written, about types of engines in the power dept..
HP is a loser.
Alot of power there, its called torque...

Christ 10-26-2009 07:58 PM

bgd73 - Do the math. If it has 4.5 HP, and it's governed at 2000-2,500RPM, you can figure out what torque it makes there. Not much, that's for sure. It's not magic, it's math.

Re: the G10.

I would love to build a G10T and put it in a Samurai or similar.

RobertSmalls 10-26-2009 10:16 PM

You could do the math, or you could look at the posted torque curve.

Christ 10-26-2009 10:17 PM

Yeah, that too... good post LOL.

Christ 10-26-2009 10:44 PM

MTD variable speed pulley
 
1 Attachment(s)
http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1256611374

That's the pulley I was talking about. The engine belt has an automatic (spring) tensioner, the drive (output) belt has a manual tensioner. You manually adjust the drive belt and the tension on it moves the middle disc up and down, changing the ratio between the input and output. Very simple setup, hard to beat it for reliability. It even wears the belts evenly on the sides, rather than the small inside surface.

Gasoline Fumes 10-27-2009 12:06 AM

I'll have to look for one of those pulleys, thanks!

Christ 10-27-2009 01:07 AM

Yep, no problem! I have one laying, not sure if I'll ever use it. I suppose if you want it, I can send it to you for $25. PM me if you're interested. That's about half the price I see around... if you see lower, lemme know, and I'll think from there.

Gasoline Fumes 10-27-2009 02:29 AM

I'll let you know if I need it. I'm hoping there's one at the junkyard for me. I think they charge $5 for any pulley.

kimer6 09-17-2010 01:20 AM

Did you ever build the trike? The 4.5 hp is GUTLESS, has fixed injection timing and was designed to run a belt driven alternator. Maybe OK for a minibike but severely lacking in power, throttle response, and fuel efficiency. All modern automotive diesels use injection timing advance. Generator Kubotas have fixed timing like a lawnmower engine.

I just got a Kubota EL 300E. I couldn't pass it up either. Mine came from a large live aboard boat and was used to keep the batteries charged when the main engines were stopped. It also came with a 3000 Watt inverter so they could run the microwave and some other 120VAC things. They went commercial and the USCG made them remove the system.

I built the Diesel Geo Metro. 24 HP is borderline dangerous here as it is not enough to keep 55 mph on the freeway hills no matter what you do. From 35 to 50mph, it was sweet running, great for flatlands, 70mpg right away. California will not allow ANY diesel conversions so it remains stored and unlicensed. It will be my Mad Max grocery getter when the meteor hits.

For electric car guys...this unit in the trunk of the car with its 150 amp alternator would allow you to recharge anywhere with no outside power. Run it when the batteries deplete. The inverter that came with my unit is also a 120VAC battery charger that will charge 12 volts at 250 amps. It came with 2/0 welding cables...huge.

If I don't hook it up to my solar/battery backup systen, then I might make it into a marital aid. Cheers....

Here it is running.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQI7OIdENdk

gone-ot 09-17-2010 04:02 PM

...looks like an excellent candidate as a DIY "on-board" full-EV kit!

...what's its BSFC under constant (charging) load like?

busypaws 09-17-2010 06:11 PM

It's never too early to plan for retirement in FL or AZ.
Here if the street is signed for 35mph or less then electric golf cart is allowed.
So buy one, take out half the batteries (leaving a few). Install engine, find junkyard or tractor supply generator to generate 12 or 24 volts to charge the batteries that remain in the golf cart. Now no plugin required for your golf cart, no range worries. Map out all your routes on 35mph or less roads.
Count the days till you move to retirement home in FL or AZ.

I already live in AZ. I want to do something like this when I retire.


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