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-   -   Using vapors from gas already going to carb? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/using-vapors-gas-already-going-carb-14307.html)

sc2dave 08-23-2010 12:30 AM

Using vapors from gas already going to carb?
 
What i want to do is route gas to a container and draw fumes out of there and also use that gas to go to the carb after.It would use 2 small fuel pumps,one to pump to the container and from there,another one to pump from the container to the carb.Would this way cut down on the quality of the gas at the carb? This will be for an 86 Toyota engine.

Frank Lee 08-23-2010 12:43 AM

I'd say, have a beer and do something else.

Bicycle Bob 08-25-2010 12:31 AM

I'm not sure, but it sounds as if you are trying to re-invent the carburetor, using the original, rejected design. EFI is darn near perfect as it is.

sc2dave 08-26-2010 09:21 PM

the original design was made to draw vapors and use the gas that the vapors came out of? never heard of it.Do you have a link to this?

Bicycle Bob 08-26-2010 10:38 PM

No link handy, but early histories tell of carburetors made like humidifiers, with air being drawn through a chamber with fabric panels wicking up gasoline from a pool in the bottom.

wagonman76 09-08-2010 11:11 PM

Sounds like something I read about before. google Tom Ogle.

villain.ind 11-12-2011 01:26 PM

along the tom ogle thing, watch the documentary "gashole". it does a great job of explaining the tom ogle mystery (conspiracy).

i am an energy engineer and i am hell bent on developing a way to extend the range of CURRENT petrol engine technology. most of my testing is done on my 96 vw cabrio. propane conversion will be dont this spring, however, as i already have all the parts minus the tank, i am thinking about using the vapor carb to develop my own gasoline vapor draw system. a supercharger will be used to pump the vapor/air mix into the engine. fuel lines to rail will be blocked via servo/regulator assembly to avoid damage to the fuel pump and will possibly utilize the a/c system to vaporize and cool the vapor to avoid combustion outside of the cylinders. wanna use my ideas? go for it, some of them arent my ideas, im just building on some concepts ive heard about along with developing my own. this could be a great step if we can all make it work. shell oil company cant kill us all ;)

Frank Lee 11-12-2011 01:50 PM

You're a what?

villain.ind 11-12-2011 02:15 PM

energy engineer, i was a different kind of engineer before i went back to school (combat demolitions, then consrtuction) but now i study energy efficiency. engineers in my field study wind turbines, solar panels, hydrogen as a fuel, etc. im currently trying to make my hour drive to school a bit less fuel consuming.

euromodder 11-12-2011 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by villain.ind (Post 270017)
i am an energy engineer and i am hell bent on developing a way to extend the range of CURRENT petrol engine technology.

propane conversion will be dont this spring

Propane conversions are nothing new, and still depend on oil wells for their distilled fuel.

Quote:

however, as i already have all the parts minus the tank, i am thinking about using the vapor carb to develop my own gasoline vapor draw system.
That's old tech.

Quote:

a supercharger will be used to pump the vapor/air mix into the engine.
Almost all improvements in fuel efficiency have been based on separating air and fuel for as long as possible - currently using direct fuel injection.

Quote:

will possibly utilize the a/c system to vaporize and cool the vapor to avoid combustion outside of the cylinders.
Another energy loss.

Cooling the vapor will result in fuel condensing again.


I'd say look elsewhere for improvements.
It's got to be good enough to substantially beat the now onrushing direct injection ... 70 years after WW2.

villain.ind 11-12-2011 02:40 PM

ik some of this is old tech. the only way to figure out how to move forward is to see what went wrong in the past. ur right about it condensing as it gets cooler. just playing around with ideas and others' concepts before i go blowin up my daily driver. another idea is to use a coil/converter to heat the fuel to 350 or so *F and bench test at what pressures it will vaporize. any insight would be welcome to avoid brick walls. flaming without proof will be ignored.

the propane thing is because the price of lpg around here is less than $2.50/gallon while gasoline is over $3.50. even with the lowered btu/hr the cost savings justify it for me. also with bio-propane being captured from bio-mass production, bio-propane and DME will soon be sustainable fuels.

pete c 11-12-2011 03:30 PM

sounds like the OP is just looking to use the waste vapors from the tank. fortunately, it's already been done, quite a few years back.

it is the charcoal canister under the hood. the vapors are absorbed by the charcoal and then released into the intake under vacuum when the engine is running.

pete c 11-12-2011 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by villain.ind (Post 270039)
im currently trying to make my hour drive to school a bit less fuel consuming.

move closer.

pete c 11-12-2011 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 270031)
You're a what?


Thanks for making me laugh, Frank. I needed it.

deathtrain 11-12-2011 04:40 PM

so you want to add a geet reactor to your car?

villain.ind 11-12-2011 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete c (Post 270057)
move closer.

"thanked," that solves my problem completely!

the problem with plumbing the vapor directly into the engine is that it is isnt metered. the engine would run rich. unless it isnt enough to make a difference, in which would make this mod useless.

greenkz 11-12-2011 10:13 PM

isnt this just an evaporative emissions system were talkin about here???

jakobnev 11-13-2011 09:03 AM

Quote:

the only way to figure out how to move forward is to see what went wrong in the past.
Well that's what they did. They looked at what was wrong with the wick-type evaporative carburetor and came up with the pitot tube and nozzle-type. Then they looked at what was wrong with that and came up with TBI, then thay looked at that and came up with PI, and after yet another round they went with DI.

Now you come here and you want to ignore all that looking at what was wrong and go back to the stone age? And you've already started to add a bunch of epicycles in the form of heating and cooling to make it work.

I say instead look ahead, and put the injectors right back there at the very end of the tail pipe! /jk

No, but maybe look at what you can do to make DI doable for the home tinkerer.

user removed 11-13-2011 09:32 AM

Since you already have the evaporative emissions purge circuit, the question becomes, what would happen if you introduced another fuel supply through the purge hose connection to the manifold?

The fuel management system would reduce the gasoline supply through the injectors to compensate for the additional fuel supplied through the supply circuit you have created.

Ultimately the oxygen sensor would trim the total fuel supplied to maintain stoichiometric mixture.

I see it as a possible way to use an alternative fuel supply for lower overall cost per mile.

Questions would still remain concerning the location, plumbing, and safety in a collision, when adding something like a propane bottle to your vehicle. I don't think it would be easy to make it cover all operating ranges of your engine, but when cruising at sustained higher speeds, adding a metered amount of propane or another fuel might be a viable option to just gasoline delivery.

As far as a home brewed Direct Injection system, that's a serious stretch, since most DI systems have engines using higher compression to utilize the advantages of DI as far as the direct cooling of the combustion chamber by the fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber itself.

Compressed Natural Gas might be another pathway, but then you have the issue of the CNG fuel containment vessel and the additional cost.

Better vaporization of the propane could be accomplished by using some cooling system heat to preheat the propane, on it's way to the induction point.

Sure would be nice if the same effort at slamming an idea would be directed more constructively.

regards
Mech

Patrick 11-13-2011 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by villain.ind (Post 270044)
another idea is to use a coil/converter to heat the fuel to 350 or so *F and bench test at what pressures it will vaporize.

Please don't. See Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

user removed 11-13-2011 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by villain.ind (Post 270094)
"thanked," that solves my problem completely!

the problem with plumbing the vapor directly into the engine is that it is isnt metered. the engine would run rich. unless it isnt enough to make a difference, in which would make this mod useless.

The modern feed back systems would prevent rich operation as long as the additional fuel supplied did not exceed the available oxygen. Not sure about a potential Check Engine Light situation if the system detected something it could not handle, but the O2 sensor is the final control of overall mixture control. Running rich would require a non functional O2 sensor (already a CEL) or the fuel management systems lack of compensational range to reduce the gasoline delivery to compensate for the volume of alternative fuel delivered.

Can you say Natural Gas-Gasoline powered car?

Some Propane or Natural Gas added to the system should work, as long as it is done properly.

regards
Mech

jakobnev 11-13-2011 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 270159)
As far as a home brewed Direct Injection system, that's a serious stretch, since most DI systems have engines using higher compression to utilize the advantages of DI as far as the direct cooling of the combustion chamber by the fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber itself.

While true, the art or modifying CR isn't exactly in need of new research.

user removed 11-13-2011 12:37 PM

Suggesting that the average ecomodder would be capable of "modifying the compression ratio" then adding a means of direct injection of fuel into the combustion chamber, which would require some serious engineering and an additional passageway in the cylinder head, is far beyond anyone outside of a considerably competent machine shop and engineering expertise, that to this point has evaded the ability of many new car manufacturers.

That being said, it may actually come to a point where the existing spark plug hole could be used if a combination direct injector and spark plug mechanism could be designed and produced.

Maybe something along this line.

transonic combustion - Google Search

regards
Mech

jakobnev 11-13-2011 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 270193)
Suggesting that the average ecomodder would be capable of "modifying the compression ratio" then adding a means of direct injection of fuel into the combustion chamber, which would require some serious engineering and an additional passageway in the cylinder head, is far beyond anyone outside of a considerably competent machine shop and engineering expertise, that to this point has evaded the ability of many new car manufacturers.

Stop lumping those two together, it's not like it's more difficult to make toast after making a cup of coffee. And yes, if someone went ahead and designed a good enough solution many could do it. (average might be a bit of a stretch tho.) Take the MPGuino as an example, many people are able to build them from plans, but not as many would be able to design them from scratch.

Quote:

That being said, it may actually come to a point where the existing spark plug hole could be used if a combination direct injector and spark plug mechanism could be designed and produced.
Yes, yes! And someone could make such plugjectors and sell them to people who don't have the skills and/or equipment to make them themselves - just like high-comp pistons are sold today.

pjbgravely 11-29-2011 11:17 PM

Nothing new
 
It is funny how backwards the automotive industry has always been. Direct injection in a gasoline engine was used by Messerschmitt in WWII and is probably a lot older than that.
Fuel injection, the super charger, hemi head, and multiple valves per cylinder were all invented just after the turn of the 20th century.
Air bags were invented in the 60's and were finally put in most cars in the 90's.

user removed 11-30-2011 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakobnev (Post 270205)
Stop lumping those two together, it's not like it's more difficult to make toast after making a cup of coffee. And yes, if someone went ahead and designed a good enough solution many could do it. (average might be a bit of a stretch tho.) Take the MPGuino as an example, many people are able to build them from plans, but not as many would be able to design them from scratch.

Actually increased compression and direct injection work together to produce more power and better efficiency. Why not "lump them together".



Yes, yes! And someone could make such plugjectors and sell them to people who don't have the skills and/or equipment to make them themselves - just like high-comp pistons are sold today.


Possibly, but just adding direct injection without looking at the characteristics of the combustion chamber design, flame front propagation, as well as other aspects of the situation will probably not produce the best results and could produce nothing. It needs a systematic approach. If just slapping a set of different injectors in an engine would make a dramatic difference it would have already been done.

Way beyond the average tinkerer.

regards
Mech


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