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-   -   VX wrong trans (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/vx-wrong-trans-18798.html)

379Kcivic 09-13-2011 04:24 PM

VX wrong trans
 
Problem. After some time now and finally gathering the funds, I was able to replace a transmission on my '95 Civic VX that was totally trashed.

Yep; pretty sure the shop installed a dx/lx trans instead of a cx/vx trans. From information gathered here and other sites, the VX should read about 2000 rpms @ 60 mph...mine reads 2400. 65 is 2600 & 70 is a whopping 2850-2900. Am I not correct that the VX should be @ about 1950-2000 going 60mph?


I am sooooo annoyed that a shop didn't confirm what trans they were receiving and/or just decided that just because another trans WOULD fit that it was ok to install!

Yep. After a couple phone calls to the shop that did the work, I'll have to head in personally.
ugHHHHHHHHHHHHH!:mad::mad::mad:

Ryland 09-14-2011 01:41 AM

Sounds like they either get to replace it with the correct part, or pay for someone else to replace it with the correct part.

I'm sure they will argue with you, but just like if they had replaced your 1.5L engine with a 1.6L engine and told you that they were close enough, you would not be happy either, it's the wrong part, plane and simple.

379Kcivic 09-14-2011 01:19 PM

Exactly. Actually the guy from the shop called me shortly after I spoke with them to tell me they just ordered the correct trans and it is being shipped! He has agreed to take care of everything...potential headache averted. But I sure do like the gearing of the 'wrong' trans around town (not so much on the highway, though). And the shift quality of this trans is pretty darned nice, too.

I did supply the shop with Honda trans fluid and will do so again. It gives me peace of mind knowing they will be using that fluid even though it's something I shouldn't have to pay for this time.

A couple questions:

1. Is there any difference in the length between gears VX/CX vs. DX/LX? I know the gearing is different, I mean the distance/throw while moving the shifter?

2. Will there be any difference in feel/shift quality or is the VX/CX inferior feeling straight from the factory compared to the other Civic models (assuming both are of similar age and condition)? I have never driven any of the other examples of Civics from '92-95,

Next up I have to do something about the handling; the body roll is terrible! THANKS!

Ryland 09-14-2011 09:29 PM

For the most part the shift feel you are feeling is most likely the new fluid causing it to shift smoother.

HighMPG 09-14-2011 10:33 PM

How much is a VX or CX transmission these days ?
Both the same right?

379Kcivic 09-14-2011 11:34 PM

I paid $450 for a CX/VX (or at least I thought, see post above...!) that has 79K miles and is covered by the installer for 6 months (the replacement trans I have coming has 84K). I found cheaper units, some as cheap as 300, but they had higher miles and only came with a 90 day warranty. I plan to slowly but surely restore this car and wanted to get parts that I felt pretty confident would last for several years.

**So does anyone know if the distance traveled for the shifter or 'shift throw' of a CX/VX trans would be the same as a DX/LX trans? Will the quality of the shift feel as good?

user removed 09-15-2011 09:46 AM

I think the difference in the two transmissions is in the final drive (differential) portion of the transmission. There are some better knowledgeable Honda members who can confirm or refute that belief.

regards
Mech

California98Civic 09-15-2011 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 379Kcivic (Post 261131)
I paid $450 for a CX/VX (or at least I thought, see post above...!) that has 79K miles and is covered by the installer for 6 months (the replacement trans I have coming has 84K). I found cheaper units, some as cheap as 300, but they had higher miles and only came with a 90 day warranty. I plan to slowly but surely restore this car and wanted to get parts that I felt pretty confident would last for several years.

**So does anyone know if the distance traveled for the shifter or 'shift throw' of a CX/VX trans would be the same as a DX/LX trans? Will the quality of the shift feel as good?

It should all be quite similar. It's a really tight ship. One part bolts on with the others, interchangable across the trim lines and often generations. The VX gearing is better, but it might be entirely because of the final drive gear. When I was researching the gearing a couple months ago, I noticed that some of the trans have the same gearing and make their difference with the final drive.

BTW, why not get a factory trans? As I recall, they are not a lot more pricey than this (labor excluded) and they would be new? Something I don't know about the costs or availability? Did you look into it?

Ryland 09-15-2011 11:09 AM

complete new transmission is $2017 Honda Automotive Parts.

Car-part.com has a few that have 10,000 miles and a whole bunch that have 50,000 miles on them.
I had my first vx transmission have the main bearing go out at 230,000 miles and I drove it for another 5,000 or so before replacing it with a $150 used, 100,000 mile transmission, my current vx has 216,000 miles on it and the transmission is very smooth and quite.
I suspect that what made my first tranny go out at 230,000 miles was the lack of mtf changes, when I bought it the owner at the time said the only thing he replaced on it for 100,000 miles was tires, exhaust and engine oil changes.

California98Civic 09-15-2011 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 261195)
complete new transmission is $2017 Honda Automotive Parts.

Ooops! And thanks. I'll have to check again, but I am confident you are right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 261195)
I suspect that what made my first tranny go out at 230,000 miles was the lack of mtf changes.

It probably has not been changed in my car since 27,000 miles, when I bought it with a drive-train warranty from the dealer (used). But maybe not then, even. Who knows. Add that to list. Suggestions as to fluid brands?

Ryland 09-15-2011 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by California98Civic (Post 261201)
Suggestions as to fluid brands?

Up until I think 1996 or so the owners manual said to use 10W30 motor oil in the manual transmissions, I have 0w30 and am very happy with it, the owners manual says to change the 10w30 motor oil every 2 years.
newer civics call for Honda MTF, looks like the price can vary quite a bit, from $17 a quart from some dealerships down to $5.75 a quart (plus shipping) online from places like Manual Transmission Fluid but if you add in the cost of shipping it comes to about $10 a quart.
From glancing at google results it looks like changing the fluid, even the Honda MTF every 30,000 miles is about right, but your owners manual should tell you for sure.

379Kcivic 09-15-2011 01:31 PM

Hondapartscheap.com priced a trans @ $2131+ shipping. I didn't even get the mileage on that one. And just for kicks I asked about the motor... no dice, no longer available.

user removed 09-15-2011 02:42 PM

It's my understanding that the formula for regular motor oil has changed and Honda no longer recommends regular motor oil in manuals. It was some ingredient that was removed that caused the change.

regards
Mech

some_other_dave 09-15-2011 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 379Kcivic (Post 261131)
**So does anyone know if the distance traveled for the shifter or 'shift throw' of a CX/VX trans would be the same as a DX/LX trans? Will the quality of the shift feel as good?

There should be no difference in the shift throw; the transmissions are pretty much the same, just with different numbers of teeth on the gears. The movement of the sliders on the shafts are what determines the shift throw and to a great extent the feel of the shifting. So IF the VX transmission is in the same condition as the DX one, it should shift the same.

-soD

Joe1234 10-02-2011 04:22 PM

I drive a VX and it is 2000RPM in 5th gear at 70MPH. Sounds like the shop you used is full of retards as usual. They either thought you'd be too stupid to notice or they were too stupid to pay attention to detail.

HighMPG 10-04-2011 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 261226)
It's my understanding that the formula for regular motor oil has changed and Honda no longer recommends regular motor oil in manuals. It was some ingredient that was removed that caused the change.

regards
Mech

I believe in about 96+ or some year they mandated the reduction of Zinc and Phosphorus which greatly helps in wear reduction. They all had to be under 750ppm or so. Royal purple and Redline have over about 1200+ppm of Zinc and Phosphorus which helps engines last much longer. Because of the reduction of engine lubricating minerals and compounds it pushed car companies to build better longer lasting motors but not good for us with older cars.
If you like to add onto your regular oil they sell ZDDP additive which helps bring those levels of normal oil back up. You should check before adding anything into your oils to make sure it is compatible.

Most of all racing oil, which I use, are not labeled street legal because of dirtier emissions but in a transmission where the oil does not burn I wold totally use racing VR1 10-30 Valvoline oil which is more the likely safe still.

Here is the main reason newer oils are not ok to use.
I took this from the Valvoline site , under racing oil.

Valvoline:
Racing Oil

What are the benefits to using a racing oil versus a regular "street legal" oil?

The Valvoline VR1 Racing & "Not Street Legal" racing oils contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include fewer detergents than regular conventional motor oils.

What is motor oil with zinc?

The anti-wear additive simply referred to as zinc by most car enthusiasts is actually short for Zinc DialkylDithiophosphates or ZDDP. Its primary role is to prevent metal-to-metal contact between engine parts by forming a protective film. Despite being referred to as zinc, this additive actually contains zinc and phosphorus, with phosphorus performing the anti-wear function in the motor oil with zinc.

Why is it important to have the zinc/phosphorus levels in motor oil changed?

With ever increasing limits on emissions, automobile manufacturers have tightened emission control systems on newer vehicles. This is one of several factors considered when the American Petroleum Institute (API) sets standards for motor oil with zinc. The current API standard is SM which replaced the previous SL classification. Because phosphorus can poison a vehicle's emission system, the level of zinc is lower for current motor oil.

What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?

Many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in SM motor oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible. This has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern motor oil is not adequate to protect older engines.

What solutions does Valvoline offer to the zinc issue?

Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue:
Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil: Contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 20w50, straight 50, 10w30, straight 30, straight 40, and straight 60.
Longer-Lasting Zinc/Phosphorus: Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the motor oil where it protects the engine instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive across its entire line of passenger car motor oils including SynPower -- the only synthetic oil that offers this additive.

Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" racing oil?

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13 percent of zinc and .12 percent of phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14 percent of zinc and .13 percent of phosphorus.

Will an additive boost the zinc level?

You can use an additive to increase the zinc level. However, check with your motor oil manufacturer to ensure the additive is compatible with your racing oil.

Is VR1 a conventional oil, a synthetic or a blend?

Valvoline VR1 racing oil is a conventional, non-synthetic racing oil.


I am sure this stuff is still good to use in your honda transmission.

mycivic 03-29-2012 05:34 AM

@60mph my vx is at 2100 is that normal. I just purchase the car, it has a fair amount of mileage(250xxx),minimun rust, straight body ect... i've also notice that vx owners all seem to have different mph speed, when cruising in 5th gear @ 2000rpm, from 1900 to my whooping 2100!!:eek: is this normal for the vx or is my car just an old fart and need major tune up!

California98Civic 03-29-2012 08:53 AM

I think my 1998 DX is at 2100 RPM somewhere around 50mph. You have it about right, I think.

turbothrush 03-29-2012 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycivic (Post 296587)
@60mph my vx is at 2100 is that normal. I just purchase the car, it has a fair amount of mileage(250xxx),minimun rust, straight body ect... i've also notice that vx owners all seem to have different mph speed, when cruising in 5th gear @ 2000rpm, from 1900 to my whooping 2100!!:eek: is this normal for the vx or is my car just an old fart and need major tune up!

I have 2 vx's with the correct trans. At a true 60mph one reads about 1900 and the other reads 2050. I am pretty sure I read somewhere there is a way to calibrate the tach but I can't seem to find it now.

mycivic 03-29-2012 02:19 PM

thanks for the quick response guys!! oh.. and i forgot to mention that @ 75mph my tech is @2500...

Ecky 04-01-2012 12:12 PM

I would check your speedometer first, to make sure you're going the speed you think you are. On my 2 Hondas, I guess maybe the spring in the speedometer got weaker with age or something but it caused the needle to read a constant amount high - 4mph in my Del Sol and 7mph in my my Civic DX.

mycivic 04-11-2012 12:50 AM

does anyone posses the attainment on how to measure your speed.

Ecky 04-11-2012 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycivic (Post 299671)
does anyone posses the attainment on how to measure your speed.

I used a GPS to measure mine.

some_other_dave 04-11-2012 08:09 PM

There's also finding a known distance, and traversing it over a given amount of time. Miles traveled / time taken == MPH (or km/h if you're using metric units). You can use that to calibrate your actual speed against the speedometer if you can manage to keep a steady speed for a known distance.

A longer distance (and time) will generally mean less error in your measurement this way, as well.

-soD

SiVX 04-12-2012 09:53 PM

Ok guys, I have some questions concerning transmission swaps in VXs... First off, other than RPM testing, is there any way to visually identify that I have a VX tranny?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe1234 (Post 263734)
I drive a VX and it is 2000RPM in 5th gear at 70MPH. Sounds like the shop you used is full of retards as usual. They either thought you'd be too stupid to notice or they were too stupid to pay attention to detail.

The reason I ask is above. I hear all different opinions on where the tach should be at Xmph... I just bought a VX that has HX rims with 185 tires. At 70mph I am above 2000RPM... And with bigger tires I should be slightly below, correct?

"check the engine rpm at 100 km h it should be 1900 rpm in fifth gear
if rpm is 2400 you got a tranny from civic 96-2000 hb
if rpm is 2700 you got a dx 92-95
if rpm is 2900 you got a si tranny"

Read that on another thread. I'll use my GPS unit to verify accurate speed and see what I get at 60 and 70 mph...

Question:" My 185 tires are 10.8% larger than the VX 165s. Does this mean my RPMs for a given speed should be about 11% lower than normal?
Thanks for the help.

cbaber 04-12-2012 10:15 PM

Click HERE for a list of ratios for Honda transmissions.

I have 185/65/15 tires on my Civic HX and I am around 2100-2200 at 60 MPH. Cant remember exactly I need to look tonight.

Ecky 04-12-2012 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiVX (Post 300118)
Question:" My 185 tires are 10.8% larger than the VX 165s. Does this mean my RPMs for a given speed should be about 11% lower than normal?
Thanks for the help.

Yes, you are traveling 10.8% faster than what the speedometer says, so if your speedometer says you're doing 100km/h, divide your RPM by 1.108 to get the corrected value, or drive 10.8% faster.

some_other_dave 04-13-2012 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiVX (Post 300118)
Question:" My 185 tires are 10.8% larger than the VX 165s. Does this mean my RPMs for a given speed should be about 11% lower than normal?

If you are asking if changing tire sizes will change what the speedometer reads for a given RPM in a given gear, then no.

If you are asking if it will change the actual speed for that RPM, then yes.

The speedometer only "sees" how fast the drive wheels are turning. Changing the tire size will change what that actual speed is, but the speedometer and tach will still read the same.

-soD

SiVX 04-13-2012 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by some_other_dave (Post 300262)
If you are asking if changing tire sizes will change what the speedometer reads for a given RPM in a given gear, then no.

If you are asking if it will change the actual speed for that RPM, then yes.

The speedometer only "sees" how fast the drive wheels are turning. Changing the tire size will change what that actual speed is, but the speedometer and tach will still read the same.

-soD

Wow, that's a really good point. I did so much thinking and trying to convert tire size and come up with proper ratios, that I didn't even realize that the car doesnt know anything about that stuff... Duhhh. :o So I definately have the right tranny! Reading around 2000 RPM at abt 65mph. It's not the 70mph at 2krpm sum1 above mentioned. But hey, could just be electrical load and such.
Thanks Dave. I can calculate beam strength and force loads, just cant see the small picture lol.


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