EcoModder.com

EcoModder.com (https://ecomodder.com/forum/)
-   General Efficiency Discussion (https://ecomodder.com/forum/general-efficiency-discussion.html)
-   -   Weichai Power Unveils World’s First Diesel Engine with 53.09% Thermal Efficiency (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/weichai-power-unveils-world-s-first-diesel-engine-41555.html)

Logic 09-16-2024 05:39 AM

Weichai Power Unveils World’s First Diesel Engine with 53.09% Thermal Efficiency
 
Weichai Power Unveils World’s First Diesel Engine with 53.09% Thermal Efficiency:

"....upgrading from a thermal efficiency level of 45-46% to 53% could enhance diesel engine economy by approximately 14% ... For a heavy-duty tractor traveling 250,000 kilometers annually, this improvement could save roughly 12,000 liters of diesel fuel each year...

...Weichai Power’s research team embarked on a focused effort spanning over 500 days to refine four critical systems: combustion, air intake, fuel delivery, and friction reduction..."
https://baudouin.com/weichai-power-s...ciency-record/

https://en.weichaipower.com/media_ce...20_104523.html

Anyone wondering why I bolded friction reduction. and air intake? :)

Logic 09-16-2024 06:09 AM

https://patents.justia.com/assignee/...i-power-co-ltd

Piwoslaw 09-16-2024 08:10 AM

Looking at the pictures of the engine in the links I wonder why it has the cooling fan mounted directly on the engine, and not on the radiator?

Unless it so efficient that it can do away with the water-based cooling system?

aerohead 09-16-2024 10:18 AM

' 53% BTE '
 
A BSFC map would be instructive, as we could 'see' where the 'island' of lowest fuel consumption occurs, and the rpm bandwidth in which it resides.
For ground transport, road loads are transient, requiring the transmission to keep the engine at the 'sweet-spot,' if operating at 53% BTE is to ever be realized with OTR transport.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 09-17-2024 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 695660)
For ground transport, road loads are transient, requiring the transmission to keep the engine at the 'sweet-spot,' if operating at 53% BTE is to ever be realized with OTR transport.

So, unless CVTs become a thing on big rigs (some agricultural tractors already resort to it), you think the 53% thermal efficiency claim is only halfway truth?

aerohead 09-19-2024 10:45 AM

' CVTs '
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 695700)
So, unless CVTs become a thing on big rigs (some agricultural tractors already resort to it), you think the 53% thermal efficiency claim is only halfway truth?

* According to Ricardo Engineering, a 12-speed transmission has the same mechanical efficiency as a CVT, so that would require a 'doubling' of what is commonly in use.
* The 'formerly most efficient' 'diesel' engines were as the Hitachi units, used for cargo ships. They were 46% BTE, as big as some mobile homes, pistons as tall as an adult male, and operated at a constant 130-rpm, on 'bunker fuel.'
* And presently, Daimler-Benz' Freightliner, diesel-electric hybrid tractor-semitrailer, has a BTE-e of 55%, adding regen into the mix.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weichai may have 'achieved' 53% on an engine test-stand, under some arbitrary load constraints, in a laboratory setting.
They need to provide bona fides 'where the rubber meets the road.'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The engine may have to be made of 'ceramics', with its tribology based upon vapor-phase- lubrication technology, rather than conventional hydrodynamic lubrication, as is the global industry standard.

Piotrsko 09-20-2024 10:25 AM

12 speed? Thats a 4 speed with a 3 ratio brownie behind it. Not all that efficient unless you spend a bunch of time figuring out gearing so that the shift drop puts you into the beginning of the torque curve of that particular engine. Gonna need at least three engine specific transmissions in America.

In Poland, rode a russian made bus that had an 8 forward geared auto. Up to their freeway speeds, all it did was hunt the gears until the bus went steady state on that freeway. 1200rpm climb to 1600, shift, repeat at least 5 more times in the first mile, you're now at 35-40 mph, hard to read the speedo from the first right side seat. 1200 is a bit high for max torque, 1600 is a bit low for max hp. Driver tromps the go pedal, downshifts twice, but not that often because like all pro drivers, the go.pedal has 2conditions: full on, full off. Nicest thing about that russian trans was it didn't shift when you got off the throttle, either up or down.

redpoint5 09-20-2024 12:13 PM

I'm wondering what the limiting factors are with engineering a Prius-like planetary gear set capable of handling trucking needs? It solves the problem of having too many gears, and the problem of conventional CVT fragility.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 09-21-2024 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 695763)
I'm wondering what the limiting factors are with engineering a Prius-like planetary gear set capable of handling trucking needs?

Toyota did something like it for some of its hybrid Hino trucks, yet serial hybrid designs have been supposed to be better suited to trucks and buses.


Quote:

It solves the problem of having too many gears
Considering how Toyota matched a scaled-up HSD to an automated-manual transmission for some of its hybrid trucks, most likely trucks would still have more gears than light-duty vehicles.

aerohead 09-21-2024 10:31 AM

' torque curve '
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotrsko (Post 695760)
12 speed? Thats a 4 speed with a 3 ratio brownie behind it. Not all that efficient unless you spend a bunch of time figuring out gearing so that the shift drop puts you into the beginning of the torque curve of that particular engine. Gonna need at least three engine specific transmissions in America.

In Poland, rode a russian made bus that had an 8 forward geared auto. Up to their freeway speeds, all it did was hunt the gears until the bus went steady state on that freeway. 1200rpm climb to 1600, shift, repeat at least 5 more times in the first mile, you're now at 35-40 mph, hard to read the speedo from the first right side seat. 1200 is a bit high for max torque, 1600 is a bit low for max hp. Driver tromps the go pedal, downshifts twice, but not that often because like all pro drivers, the go.pedal has 2conditions: full on, full off. Nicest thing about that russian trans was it didn't shift when you got off the throttle, either up or down.

That's the whole point of the 12-speed.
It's close-ratios, with minimum BSFC 'island-hopping' between gears, allows the engine to remain in it's optimum rpm range of efficiency.
The engines are at, or exceed 1,800-pound-feet of torque, exceeding the capabilities of CVTs when Ricardo did the reporting, hence, the 'conventional' transmission.
Telsa's Semi does an end-run around the issue. It's BSFC-e of 0.135 lbs/ bhp-hr-e, gasoline-e , and 95% BTE-e 'slays' ALL the 'Diesels', hands down. A 'two-fer.'
Also, for dedicated clients, like Frito Lay, where their semi-trailers are only hauling lightweight potato chip-like products, they could operate with dedicated, ' light-weighted' semi-trailers of 'half' the mass, with 'all' the strength necessary, allowing even greater pack capacity, and range, with no weight penalty. ( there's no reason to operate a 'trailer' engineered to carry 'bowling balls', when carrying ' cotton balls'). Adam Smith would 'pity the fool'!

Logic 09-22-2024 07:52 AM

Serial Hybrids:
https://www.youtube.com/@EdisonMotors/videos
NB; all the videos.

for the pretty pic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVO1Lh7AK1I&t=17s


No aero to speak of. Just an easy and cheap to fix and maintain logging truck EV, with a genset..!
(ye; all that constant rpm and load aerohead is speaking about
and
Empty up the mountain, loaded down the mountain + regen..)

redpoint5 09-22-2024 12:23 PM

Series hybrid might be the way to go with trucking, just as is done on trains. Next question then is at what weight or driving cycle is a series design better than parallel?

freebeard 09-22-2024 01:51 PM

An inspiring story.
Quote:

No aero to speak of.
I think aerohead would approve of the standoffs for the rear view mirrors. It's got low frontal area and front wheel spats.

Logic 09-22-2024 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 695796)
Series hybrid might be the way to go with trucking, just as is done on trains. Next question then is at what weight or driving cycle is a series design better than parallel?

Ye that's a really good question!

The Koenigsegg Regera uses a torque converter with lock up to '7th gear' the wheels and a generator to drive 2 motors for pullaway and to top up a small 'regen battery'
it's a clever idea to get both (series parallel) and does pretty well for what it is, but it's not an eco car.
The numbers may still be worth looking at though. if one can find them.

Some numbers here at the end of the video, but this guy is more interested in making money on YouTube than actual engineering. And that's a good thing in his case IMHO :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qu-BDixGYY
That's his latest vid. There are other vids.

Probably the best implementation with reduced lightened battery is the Obrist Tesla:
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...=Obrist+Tesla+

Interesting engine too:
Damn good way to do a large cylinder offset with no vibration..!
Pity Obrist seems to consider that little nugget of information a state secret for some crazy reason... or... it hasn't occurred to him..!?

For those new to offset cylinders:
That's when the cylinders aren't directly above the crankshaft but offset to the side some so that the conrod is more vertical during the power stroke, giving less friction and more degrees of power stroke etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwtZkHoVMso

freebeard 09-22-2024 06:56 PM

A One-Year Update on Edison Motors | Everything Electric Canada 2024
Big ol' Scania motor.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 09-23-2024 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 695796)
Series hybrid might be the way to go with trucking, just as is done on trains.

Most of those giant dump trucks used on mining sites also rely on serial hybrid powerplants.


Quote:

Next question then is at what weight or driving cycle is a series design better than parallel?
Sure the weight difference between a serial hybrid setup and a more conventional driveline, which could be fitted to either a non-hybrid or a parallel hybrid, is also significant. Once a scaled-down ICE, generator, battery pack, wiring and direct-drive electric motor become lighter in weight than a large engine, transmission and driveshaft (some big-rig engines are really heavy), just like it's the case for those mining field trucks, efficiency tends to increase.

aerohead 09-23-2024 10:21 AM

' series vs parallel '
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 695796)
Series hybrid might be the way to go with trucking, just as is done on trains. Next question then is at what weight or driving cycle is a series design better than parallel?

You might go to SAE International's website and do a search there. They typically have an abstract for every paper, free to peruse, that often provides enough information such that there's no need to purchase the paper.
BMW and GM have both offered serial-hybrids, and they might have published answers to your questions.
The 'serial' Gen-II VOLT gets 37-mpg, driving coast-to-coast.
The 'parallel' Prius does the same @ 55-mpg.
Exploring the specific differences between the two vehicles might 'flush out' the explanation.

Logic 09-24-2024 04:43 AM

Obrist...Tesla consists of a two-cylinder, 1.0-liter gasoline engine ... claimed to deliver fuel consumption of just 2.0 lt/100km (118 US mpg/141 mpg Imperial).
https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/ob...a-into-a-phev/


At a guess I would say an economical series hybrid should ask you where you're going, GPS style (with saveable/selectable favorites), before you leave.
Then it's computer can work out just how much and where the ICE should come on.
ie:
Know that for eg: its a std commute to work where you will plug in to charge.
(saved to/selected from favorites)
Or that you are just nipping to your local cafe quickly (close) and there's no reason to come on at all.

The computer might even log these trip's to better learn just how much regen you will be getting and where you will be flooring it up a steep hill, etc.
ie: learn your normal routes.

Another issue with series hybrids is cold starts.
I would guess that, during a longer trip, it should come on often enough to avoid cooling down too much.
Coming on during most all accelerations to minimize amp draw from the battery (increasing it's lifespan), is probably the way to go.

In short: (What everyone is calling) A.I... for economy...
E.I! :)

But at the end of the day, only the driver really knows whats actually going to happen ahead of time...
So being able to press an on switch because you're about to race a Lambo or something is a necessity! :cool: IMHO.

aerohead 09-26-2024 10:14 AM

' longer trip '
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Logic (Post 695835)
Obrist...Tesla consists of a two-cylinder, 1.0-liter gasoline engine ... claimed to deliver fuel consumption of just 2.0 lt/100km (118 US mpg/141 mpg Imperial).
https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/ob...a-into-a-phev/


At a guess I would say an economical series hybrid should ask you where you're going, GPS style (with saveable/selectable favorites), before you leave.
Then it's computer can work out just how much and where the ICE should come on.
ie:
Know that for eg: its a std commute to work where you will plug in to charge.
(saved to/selected from favorites)
Or that you are just nipping to your local cafe quickly (close) and there's no reason to come on at all.

The computer might even log these trip's to better learn just how much regen you will be getting and where you will be flooring it up a steep hill, etc.
ie: learn your normal routes.

Another issue with series hybrids is cold starts.
I would guess that, during a longer trip, it should come on often enough to avoid cooling down too much.
Coming on during most all accelerations to minimize amp draw from the battery (increasing it's lifespan), is probably the way to go.

In short: (What everyone is calling) A.I... for economy...
E.I! :)

But at the end of the day, only the driver really knows whats actually going to happen ahead of time...
So being able to press an on switch because you're about to race a Lambo or something is a necessity! :cool: IMHO.

On the Chevy VOLT, cross-country trek, the engine ran continuously. The battery was essentially 'dead' after 53-miles.
In 'EPA COMBINED' cycle driving, regen may constitute 20% of the total range, as with the BOLT.
For EPA HIGHWAY cycle operation, I have no data.
And the way I drive on the highway, it probably wouldn't resemble the EPA dynamometer cycle.
On the 700+ mile drive from New Mexico to home, the Interstate grades were so gentle, I observed regen only 'twice.'
Many unknowns!:o

Logic 09-26-2024 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 695864)
On the Chevy VOLT, cross-country trek, the engine ran continuously. The battery was essentially 'dead' after 53-miles.
In 'EPA COMBINED' cycle driving, regen may constitute 20% of the total range, as with the BOLT.
For EPA HIGHWAY cycle operation, I have no data.
And the way I drive on the highway, it probably wouldn't resemble the EPA dynamometer cycle.
On the 700+ mile drive from New Mexico to home, the Interstate grades were so gentle, I observed regen only 'twice.'
Many unknowns!:o

:)
The 'new 'Chevy' asks where you're going, how fast you want to get there :cool: and if you will be able to plug in on arrival and for how long.
Looks at a map:
" Hmmm... towns n robots here gives us around ?? kwh of regen and the downhills here, here and here... so we need xyz kwh to get there, the battery's been plugged in? so we're engine on for ???km of the trip.
Best place to be on to help with battery amp draw is here here and here.
Did I miss anything?"

Direct drive on the flat bits.

"Check"

We're in a hurry.

Pulling away: "we-we-GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...!"

What the hell did you put that on for!? :mad:

"Because you're always ..'late!' and you forgot to plug me in again!"

****! :mad:
Why didn't you remind me!?

"Because you muted me again! you horrible sh "

:D

freebeard 09-26-2024 05:26 PM

Want to see that on a fancy-schmancy website with parallax scrolling and everything?

https://connectedsignals.com/

This was started by Matt Ginsberg in Eugene, Oregon, (maybe a decade ago) who figured out tapping into the City's Traffic management Center. The whole story is here: www.digitaltrends.com: Stop wasting gas in the city with the app that knows when traffic lights will change

DuckDuckGo also shows some effort by Google called Green Light:
Quote:

https://sites.research.google › greenlight
Green Light: Reduce Traffic Emissions with AI - Google Research
Green Light has become an essential component of Kolkata Traffic Police. It serves several valuable purposes which contribute to safer, more efficient, and organized traffic flow and has helped us to reduce gridlock at busy intersections. Since November 2022, we have implemented suggestions at 13 intersections.

https://blog.google › outreach-initiatives › sustainability › google-ai-project-greenlight
Google Research: How Project Green Light uses AI to reduce gas emissions
Jul 29, 2024The Green Light team used Google Maps' driving trends to create an AI model that measures how traffic flows through an intersection, including patterns of starting and stopping, average wait times at a traffic light, and coordination between adjacent intersections.

Logic 09-27-2024 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 695877)
Want to see that on a fancy-schmancy website with parallax scrolling and everything?

https://connectedsignals.com/

This was started by Matt Ginsberg in Eugene, Oregon, (maybe a decade ago) who figured out tapping into the City's Traffic management Center. The whole story is here: www.digitaltrends.com: Stop wasting gas in the city with the app that knows when traffic lights will change

DuckDuckGo also shows some effort by Google called Green Light:

Wow!
Lets take this a step further:

How many times have you been stopped at a red traffic light, looking left and right and not a crossing car in sight! :mad:
If you never had to stop in the 1st place because the traffic lights are all aware of the fact that there's no crossing traffic etc...
We would all save millions of liters of gas!
And time!
In fact traffic lights would be way superior to stop streets.

The world has the tech to do this already.
This not only deserves it's own thread, it deserves a campaign where we all INSIST on it's implementation!

freebeard 09-27-2024 11:24 AM

That sounds like Green light, which I haven't looked into at ll. That would put the burden on the Traffic Management Center, to know where every vehicle is at all times.

Connected Signals is more of a route planning function in the vehicle itself. It finds the quickest route across town, based on current timing of the lights, road closures and etc.

Logic 09-27-2024 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 695881)
That sounds like Green light, which I haven't looked into at ll. That would put the burden on the Traffic Management Center, to know where every vehicle is at all times.

Connected Signals is more of a route planning function in the vehicle itself. It finds the quickest route across town, based on current timing of the lights, road closures and etc.

Green Light? I'll take a look.

I see no need for a GPS and cell tower triangulation etc to get the basics working for everyone.
Pressure sensors in the roads, at and between traffic lights and junctions , and the light's green for you if there's no one coming.

Then all the GPSing and wireless and what-not can and will be added.
But ye; GPSing and wireless and what-not were bound to come 1st. :(

Sad part is; we a thinking people haven't insisted on sensors etc considering the good that would do for fuel consumption and travel time. Time and Money...

.

freebeard 09-27-2024 09:17 PM

Giving insight into the TMC enables route planning without additional infrastructure. Just knowing how slow to go to the next light saves gas.

Putting the burden onto the traffic lights themselves would require an autonomous intersection, something like an autonomous vehicle. Vision and AI to cover all the edge cases.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 09-28-2024 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logic (Post 695835)
Obrist...Tesla consists of a two-cylinder, 1.0-liter gasoline engine

I still remember when the first Chevrolet Volt prototype was presented, and it was supposed to rely on a 3-cyl 1.0L engine for range-extending. Maybe it was fitted with the 1.4L for the production model as it would have to directly drive the wheels too...

Piotrsko 09-28-2024 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logic (Post 695880)
Wow!
Lets take this a step further:

How many times have you been stopped at a red traffic light, looking left and right and not a crossing car in sight! :mad:
If you never had to stop in the 1st place because the traffic lights are all aware of the fact that there's no crossing traffic etc...
We would all save millions of liters of gas!
And time!
In fact traffic lights would be way superior to stop streets.

The world has the tech to do this already.
This not only deserves it's own thread, it deserves a campaign where we all INSIST on it's implementation!

You have been driving on Reno's ring road McCarran? 20 years ago, you could circle all day never stopping if you were driving 43 mph and caught the first light green.

freebeard 09-28-2024 11:58 AM

'Riding the green wave'

He's proposing breaking that. All demand lights all the time.

Piotrsko 09-30-2024 10:17 AM

I got that, but the McCarran ring loop has them and you stop for whatever stuff that triggered the light. At 4:30 am I have had to stop for nothing on both side streets and I was the only person on the road at that time, all 4 directions. Traffic engineer said I was hallucinating. Took a 20 minute commute and doubled it.

Did not mention all the lights are central computer controlled (supposedly)?

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 10-03-2024 12:25 AM

No matter where, those supposedly central computer controlled traffic lights may have their downsides and failures too...

Piotrsko 10-03-2024 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 695990)
No matter where, those supposedly central computer controlled traffic lights may have their downsides and failures too...

Agreed but dont sell them as the ultimate panacea


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com