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-   -   What about buying more gas at low prices? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/what-about-buying-more-gas-low-prices-35166.html)

bobdbilder 05-11-2017 09:25 PM

What about buying more gas at low prices?
 
What if you recycle all those oil bottles and buy more gas when prices are low? Whenever you top up, you could also fill those bottles. You could label them with the prices you paid and keep it in an open or ventilated room. A dry powder extinguisher located close by.

You could either monitor WTI prices or use whatever app available to predict the next oil price.

Instead of relying for pump prices, you could use up your stock when prices hit high. Or at least paying less than what you could have. This is what oil traders do. They either own or lease huge tank farms to fill up with crude and sell at higher prices. This could also mean less trips to gas stations.

Stubby79 05-11-2017 10:03 PM

My time is worth more than would ever be gained by doing such. And besides, gas has a short shelf life and i like it as fresh as possible.

If you want to do this, buy some oil drums. At least it might make it worth the effort.

I'd still not want to store that anywhere near me, though. A seperate, fire-resistant building, perhaps.

ksa8907 05-12-2017 05:46 AM

Above ground storage tank. You'd want to make sure it is shielded from the sun and had some kind of expansion area so it wont draw in moisture or vent off the gas.

Here in america just about every farm has above ground diesel and gas fuel tanks.

oil pan 4 05-12-2017 09:46 AM

Diesel yes.
Gas no.
I saved diesel back in 2006 in oil barrels, kept it until I got ready to move in 2011. Ran great.

roosterk0031 05-12-2017 10:47 AM

Between home and work I have about $0.25 difference in gas, home to closest station is 10 miles. Sometimes I fill a 4 gallon boat tank when I fill my car, with a $8 electric fuel pump and jump pack I pump it into the Rogues. Saved $1 in the price of the gas and 20 miles (2/3 gallon) to go to the gas station.

I'd like to find a bigger tank on a second one cheap.

freebeard 05-12-2017 12:43 PM

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...3-100-0884.jpg

Here's what you want; the NATO/USMC gas can. Note the lever on the left one, it has to be turned and pulled before the lid can open.

redpoint5 05-12-2017 12:44 PM

I buy diesel 500 gallons at a time, when prices are cheap. I store them in 2 above ground containers. Diesel isn't volatile (evaporative), so it doesn't degrade over time. The water that accumulates is heavier than the fuel and isn't absorbed, so it can easily be drained off. The real enemy of diesel is micro-organisms that can grow in it given enough sunlight.

Gasoline is volatile and does absorb water (especially the ethanol part), which makes it a poor product to store for more than about a year.

I think I last paid $2 /gallon for my diesel. Cheap, but at 500 gallons, I still spent $1,000

bobdbilder 05-13-2017 12:22 AM

Well I am currently self employed and do odd jobs. For a week in a month I go cutting grass with a 30cc two stroke weed cutter. Its been raining almost every other day so the grass grow faster and I am kept busy.

So the small amounts of fluctuations do matter. I prefer using a detergent softener bottle as the threads on the cap is longer. I think the longer thread gives better seal against water vapor ingress. As vapor pressure increase, it tends to tighten up the tolerance on the thread. I put a piece of folder paper to the cap to add to the protection.

I tend to think bigger containers are both more hazardous as the vapor builds up more. So I use lots of 5liter bottles. These are used softener/lube oil containers and it helps to recycle them plus I don't have to pay for anything. Currently gas pump prices are at its lowest this year so I am stocking up.

freebeard 05-13-2017 02:30 AM

I once traveled in a country where the highways were lined with kiosks like a farmer's fruit stand, except the shelves were lined with gasoline in whiskey bottles. :eek:

Fingie 05-13-2017 01:40 PM

gasoline becomes bad fast nowadays.

Especially with ethanol.

I stored gas over winter in a shed, the cutters won't run with it, unless wou "water" it out with new gas.

jamesqf 05-14-2017 01:31 PM

The real problem here is how do you tell when prices are cheap? For instance, not that long ago it was around $4/gal, then dropped to $3. That's cheap, right? So if you bought a bunch of cheap $3 gas, you'd have missed out when it went below $2.50.

OTOH, if you really can reliably forecast price changes, you should get a job on Wall Street and not have to worry about the cost of a few gallons of gas :-)

bobdbilder 05-16-2017 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 540522)
I once traveled in a country where the highways were lined with kiosks like a farmer's fruit stand, except the shelves were lined with gasoline in whiskey bottles. :eek:

Seen them in Cambodia and Indonesia. But I would not call them highways :) In these countries, gas is expensive and if you take into account their purchasing power; doubly so. The main choice of transportation is a small cc underbone moped. They are even modified to pull a short trailer at the back to work as Taxis. IMHO by far the most fuel efficient mode of transportation.

bobdbilder 05-16-2017 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 540598)
The real problem here is how do you tell when prices are cheap? For instance, not that long ago it was around $4/gal, then dropped to $3. That's cheap, right? So if you bought a bunch of cheap $3 gas, you'd have missed out when it went below $2.50.

OTOH, if you really can reliably forecast price changes, you should get a job on Wall Street and not have to worry about the cost of a few gallons of gas :-)

Haha. No I cannot predict market prices but from current market prices I can predict next week gas prices. The New Economic definition of Day traders = Idiots. I am not really into investing but more of curiosity as I like to learn Economics even though I am more technically inclined.

You can see price movements on the web such as

CNBC Quote Modules

From that chart you could see next week prices are going to soar. Or a simple one but a day late such as

Crude Oil Price, Oil, Energy, Petroleum, Oil Price, WTI & Brent Oil, Oil Price Charts and Oil Price Forecast

I think in the US there are apps where they can tell you what current prices are at where you live. Its like Waze for gas. Countries outside the US would also have to look at currency exchange rates. I typically use XE - The World's Trusted Currency Authority

These two variables are the main indicators for pump price fluctuations. The other being refinery profits but that is a bit harder to find out. You just need to have a glimpse of the charts to get an idea where its heading.

redpoint5 05-16-2017 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 540598)
The real problem here is how do you tell when prices are cheap? For instance, not that long ago it was around $4/gal, then dropped to $3. That's cheap, right? So if you bought a bunch of cheap $3 gas, you'd have missed out when it went below $2.50.

OTOH, if you really can reliably forecast price changes, you should get a job on Wall Street and not have to worry about the cost of a few gallons of gas :-)

When it hit $2/gallon, I knew it wouldn't go much lower. You don't have to buy at the absolute lowest to profit anyhow. You just need to buy at less than the average price. If you buy a lot of fuel and the prices drop further, you keep your stored fuel and fill your vehicle with the cheaper stuff at the pump until prices rise above the price you paid.

As you point out though, buying physical goods as an investment is dumb when you can buy futures instead.

freebeard 05-16-2017 01:53 AM

Quote:

buying physical goods as an investment is dumb when you can buy futures instead.
Nickels were the only USofA coin that hadn't been debased; which is now scheduled to happen.

An ammo can of nickels, by my calculation, would be worth about $40. Just sayin'.

Try smacking someone upside the head with your paper futures.

https://www.google.com/search?q=debased+nickel

bobdbilder 05-16-2017 02:04 AM

How do those gas pump operators set prices in the US? I know prices in and around Houston, TX are typically the lowest. I know its supposed to be an unregulated market. But what stops them from charging highest possible? Is it just 'competition'? Is there a state predetermined max ceiling on prices?

Fat Charlie 05-16-2017 09:16 AM

Nothing stops them from charging as much as they can. Generally gas is just to get you into their convenience store anyway, and when there's a gas station on every corner and idiots who'll drove across town to save a buck on a 20 gallon tankful, they can't be out of line with the other stations in the area.

freebeard 05-16-2017 12:03 PM

Quote:

Is it just 'competition'? Is there a state predetermined max ceiling on prices?
I'm trying to think of anything that has a maximum legal price. Maybe virtual bridges?

Capitalism is a race to the bottom, in this case it's a good ting.

jamesqf 05-16-2017 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdbilder (Post 540677)
From that chart you could see next week prices are going to soar.

Maybe I just don't buy enough gas, 'cause I generally go 2-4 weeks between purchases.

redpoint5 05-16-2017 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 540681)
Nickels were the only USofA coin that hadn't been debased; which is now scheduled to happen.

An ammo can of nickels, by my calculation, would be worth about $40. Just sayin'.

Try smacking someone upside the head with your paper futures.

Sure, there are always exceptions to my comments, but generally it's wiser to trade commodities electronically than physically.

...and I'm not sure if you imply that the metal in the nickel is worth more than it's face value, but it's illegal to destroy US minted currency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdbilder (Post 540682)
How do those gas pump operators set prices in the US? I know its supposed to be an unregulated market. But what stops them from charging highest possible? Is it just 'competition'? Is there a state predetermined max ceiling on prices?

All markets are regulated. An "unregulated" market is just regulated by what people are willing to spend (supply and demand). Nothing stops people from charging the highest possible. We all do that. When I sell my labor to an employer, I demand the highest possible amount that they will accept. I'm regulated by the supply of people with my skill-set vs the demand for people with my skill-set. There is no max ceiling on prices just like there is no max ceiling on your income. We don't want artificial floor or ceiling limits placed on the value of things in a free economy. When you do that, unintended bad consequences occur.

... and I once heard that gas stations have an average mark-up of about $.05 per gallon. They aren't making much on the fuel; it's those 5hr energy bottles they sell for $5. Amazing how someone figured out how to market a product that normally comes in a bottle of 200 pills for $3, into a product that comes in 1 serving for $5. There is nothing special about the caffeine in 5hr energy that makes it last longer than any other caffeine source.

(as a tangent, 5hrs is the average half-life of caffeine in the body)

freebeard 05-16-2017 05:29 PM

Quote:

Sure, there are always exceptions to my comments, but generally it's wiser to trade commodities electronically than physically.

...and I'm not sure if you imply that the metal in the nickel is worth more than it's face value, but it's illegal to destroy US minted currency.
It was a 'canned beans and ammo' joke. But seriously, Vault 7? The only means of electronic trade that is fit for purpose is Bitcoin/Ethereum.

No need to melt. Although, I do have a nickel-plated brass hot tank that could stand refinishing.

Hoarding Nickels as Metal Prices Soar

Quote:

If history is any indication, the hoarders may not have long. In 1965, with the price of silver climbing, the U.S. Mint diluted the composition of both the dime and the quarter. It did the same thing to the penny in 1982 when copper became too expensive. In every case, the composition change caused the value of the original coin to skyrocket: pre-1965 dimes can now sell for $3.50 each, the quarters are valued at more than $8, and pre-1982 pennies are auctioned off in mass quantities on eBay for nearly three cents apiece. “Somebody who kept a thousand dollars’ worth of change 50 years ago could now exchange that bag for $28,000,” says Curtis Penner, a hoarder from Alberta, Canada.
And generally, energy is fungible and therefore in contention; but metals have been cornered long ago.

bobdbilder 05-17-2017 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 540721)
All markets are regulated. An "unregulated" market is just regulated by what people are willing to spend (supply and demand). Nothing stops people from charging the highest possible. We all do that. When I sell my labor to an employer, I demand the highest possible amount that they will accept. I'm regulated by the supply of people with my skill-set vs the demand for people with my skill-set. There is no max ceiling on prices just like there is no max ceiling on your income. We don't want artificial floor or ceiling limits placed on the value of things in a free economy. When you do that, unintended bad consequences occur.

I would think that if market was not regulated, all banks would have failed circa 2007. Which would have then snowballed to the auto sector and definitely energy. Plus it would have spread world wide and cause a massive upheaval.

Which at hindsight would be good as we could rewrite everything. Yet we keep doing the same thing over and over again. Nothing has been fixed. As we approach the 10th year anniversary of the Great Recession, would we flailing the same banner? Again?

The idea of a free market is great as long as you accept the other half of the equation; failures should be left on their own. Every time the GOP runs out of money, Congress says ok to raise the ceiling. And a defence contractor seals another billion dollar deal. Nobody is willing to let failure happen. So we cannot say free market is practiced because there is always a safety net.

jamesqf 05-17-2017 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdbilder (Post 540755)
...because there is always a safety net.

The worrisome part, though, is that the safety net doesn't prevent all the failures, it just postpones a lot of them, making their consequences worse when they finally do happen.

freebeard 05-17-2017 04:28 PM

Quote:

I would think that if market was not regulated, all banks would have failed circa 2007.
You call that regulation? One hyphenated word: Glass-Steagall

So the question is how do you replace the engine while you're barreling down the freeway. Interestingly, it only became possible to talk about commerce via TCP/IP in 2008 (Satoshi_Nakamoto)

Examples of a free market in action: MTG Gox, The Top 5 Cryptocurrency Failures of All Time

redpoint5 05-18-2017 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdbilder (Post 540755)
I would think that if market was not regulated, all banks would have failed circa 2007. Which would have then snowballed to the auto sector and definitely energy. Plus it would have spread world wide and cause a massive upheaval.

Which at hindsight would be good as we could rewrite everything. Yet we keep doing the same thing over and over again. Nothing has been fixed. As we approach the 10th year anniversary of the Great Recession, would we flailing the same banner? Again?

The idea of a free market is great as long as you accept the other half of the equation; failures should be left on their own. Every time the GOP runs out of money, Congress says ok to raise the ceiling. And a defence contractor seals another billion dollar deal. Nobody is willing to let failure happen. So we cannot say free market is practiced because there is always a safety net.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The fact that big banks survived the 2008 financial meltdown has nothing to do with regulation and everything to do with public money being used to bail them out.

There should have been a stipulation that if a bank accepted public bailout money, that the shareholders must fire the entire executive management and hire new people. Heck, if I was on a board of directors and was lead off a cliff by reckless behavior, I'd send the idiots packing with no severance pay. Don't even list me as a reference for your next job as Walmart middle-management.

It makes sense that if people are allowed to make unlimited profit, they should also bear the consequences of financial collapse.

Freebeard- Bitcoin is a horrible currency, and I can't wait for it to collapse. It takes an exponentially increasing amount of computing power to calculate the transactions, which means enormous amounts of electricity are being consumed. I'll point out that anything with an exponential rate of growth is unsustainable. Finally, Bitcoin is mostly used for illicit transactions and has little purpose outside of that. All of the recent news about ransomware is only made possible by this untraceable currency.

...and now this thread is completely off the rails. I suggest a lounge thread if there is any value to continuing this discussion.

freebeard 05-18-2017 11:28 AM

I'd follow you there. :thumbup:

bobdbilder 05-18-2017 12:45 PM

I am guilty as charged to let this go that direction. I do not think any amount of discussion would change things as it is beyond any of our control. I am merely suggesting ways to play with cards dealt on the table.

Though if this pops up in the lounge I'd definitely subscribe to it :D

redpoint5 05-18-2017 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdbilder (Post 540830)
I am guilty as charged to let this go that direction. I do not think any amount of discussion would change things as it is beyond any of our control. I am merely suggesting ways to play with cards dealt on the table.

Though if this pops up in the lounge I'd definitely subscribe to it :D

Hey, it's your thread. It's generally accepted for the OP to steer conversation in the direction that interests them.

freebeard 05-18-2017 02:15 PM

Quote:

I do not think any amount of discussion would change things as it is beyond any of our control. I am merely suggesting ways to play with cards dealt on the table
Quoted For Truth.

I'm fascinated by the way intent, functioning on the quantum level steers the physical world. Like, cars replaced horses on the street of New York City in ten years. I guess things moved slower then. :)

bobdbilder 05-19-2017 09:12 PM

Gas Pump Price Composition
 
1 Attachment(s)
If we go down to talk Economics, I would fear it would alienate some people from the whole idea of this post; reducing operational costs.

Therefore, I found this piece of information from EIA https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

Which is a current survey and not a prediction of gas prices. If you look at the gas pump graphic, it shows percentage of composition of gas prices. A lot of these variables can be known; Crude Oil Price and Taxes. As I look deeper into other sources, Refining margins seem set but they allowed variation with season especially with the ethanol mix. However, the Crude Oil aggregate is the bigger component.

Now as we now head into $50 per barrel territory, which is the highest in three months, I wish you all a pleasant summer.

bobdbilder 05-19-2017 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 540837)
Quoted For Truth.

Like, cars replaced horses on the street of New York City in ten years. I guess things moved slower then. :)

This is sooo true in more ways than one. I really want to add on to this but I would divert again.

freebeard 05-20-2017 12:35 AM

When you think about it, bicycles predated automobiles on the streets. :confused:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-fr...t-100-0381.jpg

I'm in the process of moving from 'clear' premium gasoline to [bio-]diesel. Am I doing it right?

alexbrown 06-18-2017 07:03 PM

I am also thinking of moving to bio-diesel.


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