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MeteorGray 08-18-2020 10:31 AM

What Happens When Hope Takes Over Planning
 
https://www.breitbart.com/environmen...-energy-flaws/

oil pan 4 08-18-2020 12:52 PM

I guess the plan is to store additional gigawatt hours in battery storage. That only works if you have additional gigawatt hours that can't be used.
They shouldn't have shutdown their nuclear power plant.
I say it's what happens when political science majors and social justice warriors make engineering decisions.

rmay635703 08-18-2020 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 629741)
I guess the plan is to store additional gigawatt hours in battery storage. That only works if you have additional gigawatt hours that can't be used.
They shouldn't have shutdown their nuclear power plant.
I say it it's what happens when political science majors and social justice warriors make engineering decisions.

Agreed, backbone power like nuclear needs a larger piece of the pie and going forward 50-100 Years will be the only reasonable priced energy source. Peaking plants are definitely needed but they want them gone as well

The will power to improve nuclear is a need but we keep messing with large energy wasters and pie in the sky.

Too bad so sad, have fun with half days of power

oil pan 4 08-18-2020 04:49 PM

Solar normally works great for peaking. But you have to be prepared for unusual circumstances or the only possible outcome is blackouts.
I say put solar on homes, it blocks some of the sun off the homes roof too.
I think any large scale solar should be put on roof tops first, give the power to the people.

Xist 08-18-2020 08:19 PM

Does anyone remember when we agreed that people should install solar water heaters before solar panels?

oil pan 4 08-19-2020 12:57 AM

That's when panels were $3 or $4 a watt.
I'm actually watching a few different solar water heater setups on evilbay and I will probably pick one soon.
No one thought premium PV panels would be made in the USA for under $1 per watt.
In at least some municipalities you can do solar water heating and you won't have to get engineering plans approved by the state and inspected. It's pretty easy to DIY some plumbing.

oil pan 4 08-19-2020 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 629755)
Oh if you use math, reason, and logic you will be hated."--OilPan4

Power generation is definitely one of those things where if you do it well you're the bad guy.

rmay635703 08-19-2020 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 629755)
Does anyone remember when we agreed that people should install solar water heaters before solar panels?

No but logically solar heat is more efficient than photovoltaic

freebeard 08-20-2020 02:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist
Does anyone remember when we agreed that people should install solar water heaters before solar panels?

No but logically solar heat is more efficient than photovoltaic
Generation and distribution are legitimate concerns. But it's rubber-meet-road at the point of use. If geodesic dome houses had become the norm in the 1970s the housing stock would be largely converted. The total requirement would be somewhat less. 50%? 10%?

Just having a wind powered ventilation system is a start. Space and water heating. An electrical microgrid if in a Democrat-run state.

jakobnev 08-20-2020 04:51 AM

The duck curve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYLzss58CLs

Now how to shift energy from noon to evening, or demand from evening to noon?

Energy for hot water can just be stored in the form of hot water. Cooking on the other hand need too high temperatures for that, maybe hydrogen is the solution here, the beauty of using it for cooking is that you don't need an expensive fuel-cell like when using it for electricity storage. And since you don't need small tanks like in a car, lower pressures can be used and a lot of the waste with compression can be avoided.

And the McMansions with low thermal mass, black roofs and huge interior spaces? Perhaps it's time to admit that they were a daft idea all along. We instead need houses with less interior space, with more thermal mass, that are white and even mirrory from all the angles that the sun sees them, that are more connected to nature - and by nature I mean all the free thermal mass of the ground.

oil pan 4 08-20-2020 01:59 PM

When you get a bad duck curve you have to disincentivise the use of solar that peaks around noon. Have to get people to put in south west facing panels which will shift more production to when most solar installs are dropping out, but overall will produce less power.

freebeard 08-20-2020 03:41 PM

EV West campaigned at Bonneville and they partnered with someone who brought a trailer with a solar tracking system. Flatten the curve.

North-South oriented vacuum tubes silvered on the bottom don't require any tracking, for heat anyway. The thickness of masonry can be adjusted for the climate.

From another decade: www.bizjournals.com: Cloud goo inventor on a mission to save the world

Quote:

It is a boast that some might consider preposterous. "I have invented a product that has saved as much energy as 10 million people use, or two-tenths of one percent of the world's energy consumption."

But Albuquerque inventor Day Chahroudi's claim isn't the raving of a scientist gone mad. For Chahroudi, 60, is the inventor of Low-e, an insulating glaze that coats anywhere from 60 to 95 percent of the windows manufactured in America, and of which more than $3 billion worth has been sold. Popular Science magazine, in fact, has named Low-e-like insulating glazings one of the top 100 inventions of the past 1,000 years.
[snip]
The weather panel
Chahroudi has been working to make Low-e and Cloud Gel come together in a product that he says will change the way buildings are built. His product is called the Weather Panel, a one-inch-thick combination of glass, Cloud Gel, Low-e and water in a self-contained portable solar water heater and heat storage unit.

The concept of the Weather Panel is that the Cloud Gel will let in the sun to heat the water sealed inside the glass panel. Once the water is heated to a pre-determined temperature, the Cloud Gel turns white, preventing the water from getting hotter. The Low-e in the panel would prevent the water from losing heat to the outside. The heat from the water would instead be transferred to the inside of the building during the night.

Chahroudi is hoping to see the day when the roofs of buildings in northern climates are made out of scores of Weather Panels linked together.

A Weather Panel has an insulating value of R-10, Chahroudi says. The R-value is a measure of how quickly heat is lost through a substance. A typical house wall has an R-value of 10, while fiberglass insulation sold for use in attics has an R-value of 19. An ordinary, single-pane glass window has an R-value of 1, while a Low-e treated window has an R-value of 2.5 to 3.
From another century: motherearthnews.com: Steve Baer and Holly Baer: Dome Home Enthusiasts
https://opimedia.azureedge.net/-/med...erbuilding.jpg
Quote:

The Baers — in alliance with a few of the Southwest's young communes — began by showing the world that very inexpensive dome housing could be fabricated from the tops of junked automobiles (Steve's out-of-print manual, Dome Cookbook, is still the classic reference on the subject).

Xist 08-20-2020 04:29 PM

Don't the most effective panels rotate on multiple axes?

freebeard 08-20-2020 04:48 PM

I'll try to remember. It's an array kind of like a Portal floor that deforms to make a parabola that follows the sun and converges to a stationary point.

rmay635703 08-20-2020 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 629812)
When you get a bad duck curve you have to disincentivise the use of solar that peaks around noon. Have to get people to put in south west facing panels which will shift more production to when most solar installs are dropping out, but overall will produce less power.

The duck curve somewhat exists without any solar.

The real problem is people and businesses shifting peak power later as compared to historical.

In yeah olde times the power demand from 5-10pm was much lower than today and the demand curve was much different (even 20 years ago peak power was earlier)

So the answer to the problem is to (as a population) get people to wake earlier or much later and alter business hours.

My guess is pricing plus unpopular policies could motivate some interests to alter their hours of operation to kill the duck.

freebeard 08-20-2020 06:24 PM

Does the curve account for night-time recharging of electric vehicles?

rmay635703 08-20-2020 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 629818)
Does the curve account for night-time recharging of electric vehicles?

My PHEV actually charges during peak solar and after midnight.

Most with EVS and solar I know either charge mid day during peak solar or set the charge timer for super off peak late at night to avoid fees.

Also Given EVs are such a small percentage of vehicles (under 3000 statewide) in my case you would expect to see different usuage patterns in non Bev states versus the 2 or 3 with Bev states that have around 1% passenger cars plug in.
But you actually see very little difference between states with and without EVs there is a seasonal difference in states with real seasons and farm usuage is different but nothing due to plug ins yet.

One would hope Most plug in users would chase pennies by offsetting use But some states (like mine) penalize you too much for you to break even.

Fat Charlie 08-20-2020 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 629779)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 629755)
Does anyone remember when we agreed that people should install solar water heaters before solar panels?

No but logically solar heat is more efficient than photovoltaic

My 10,000 gallon pool is plumbed with one panel that's probably 5'x3'. It spent a lot of time in the 80s this summer, peaking at 88 for a few days during the last big heat wave. Not bad, considering it got down into the 70s at night and we didn't bother covering it. I'd hate to think of the solar electric setup we'd have needed to get the same results.

freebeard 08-20-2020 09:50 PM

The simplest thing is the solar pond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
Quote:

A solar pond is a pool of saltwater which collects and stores solar thermal energy. The saltwater naturally forms a vertical salinity gradient also known as a "halocline", in which low-salinity water floats on top of high-salinity water. The layers of salt solutions increase in concentration (and therefore density) with depth. Below a certain depth, the solution has a uniformly high salt concentration.
....
The largest operating solar pond for electricity generation was the Beit HaArava pond built in Israel and operated up until 1988. It had an area of 210,000 mē and gave an electrical output of 5 MW.

Fat Charlie 08-20-2020 10:52 PM

A pool in the sun can gain heat. But if you have a pool that has to have a filtration pump running anyway, and slap a solar panel in as part of the return plumbing, then you can really gain heat. Passive solar is important, but optimizing what's already happening is better.

freebeard 08-20-2020 11:25 PM

Can't swim in a solar pond. :(

Do you have the space for a roll-away pool cover?

Fat Charlie 08-21-2020 12:19 AM

Why not? mine's a saltwater pool. Is a solar pond just an inefficient way to generate electricity, or do you get some direct gain from the heat? It'd be a pity to miss out on that.

We've got a sheet of bubble wrap that we roll on and off the pool as needed. This sheet has been on it for a few years, this or next year may be its last.

freebeard 08-21-2020 01:00 AM

I post links so you can find answers. Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond#Description. You'll see that it works by stratification, any mixing would kill the 2% efficiency.

The cutt-and-bleeding edge of tech is a membrane to separate the brine and potable water.

oil pan 4 08-22-2020 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 629815)
Don't the most effective panels rotate on multiple axes?

Depends on what your definition of efficiency is.
Doing a 2 axis tilt at least triples the price of the panels and mounting in a solar install. All to get about 30% more power.
You've better off just installing 30% more fixed panels.
It made sense when panels were over $10 per watt.

freebeard 08-22-2020 05:56 PM

Fixed panels with Fresnel lens concentrators.

oil pan 4 08-22-2020 08:14 PM

If you direct anything more than natural sun light on panels it voids their warranty.

freebeard 08-22-2020 10:48 PM

[grumble, grumble]

oil pan 4 08-23-2020 04:08 PM

I don't know if panels could be built to take concentrated solar, but their cost may exceed benefit. If you double the sun on panels do they need a cooling system?
Heat sinks on the underside, or liquid cooling, well that at least doubles the price.

I think a good compromise would be to tilt them on a single axis.
That way you get a 2 fold benefit. They come up to full power earlier, produce some more power but in thing the real benefit is to be able to tilt the panels away from hail and wind. Since places that have the best sun tend to have bad wind and/or hail. If the system saves the panels one time in 20 years it pays for its self.


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