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-   -   When to P&G vs just drive (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/when-p-g-vs-just-drive-30423.html)

Daox 11-06-2014 10:45 AM

When to P&G vs just drive
 
2 Attachment(s)
Have you ever wondered, as you're cruising up a slight incline weather it would be best to use P&G with a very short coast, or simply just putter up it at the speed limit? I know I have. On my daily commute to work, its primarily downhill, so I use a lot of engine off coasting with some pulses here and there to maintain speed. However, on my way home, the inverse is true. I find myself going up a bunch of slight inclines.

In most cars, P&G gives gigantic gains due to oversized engines. However, its not as hard to max out the power of the 1.0L in the Metro. Thus, it cruises much closer to peak BSFC than most other vehicles with larger engines. This is probably the biggest reason it gets such great mileage (especially despite its less than stellar aerodynamics).

So, when is it best to pulse and glide versus just maintain speed? In this relatively simple exercise, I'll show you how to determine what is best.

First off, you will want a brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) chart for your engine (there is a list of them in our wiki). I know not everyone has access to their specific engine. But, if you find some similar ones you should be fairly close.

Here is the BSFC chart for a 1.0L G10 Metro engine. I have modified it slightly for our purposes. I added more grid lines so I could better identify exact values, and I also added the red dots to indicate minimum BSFC for each RPM value.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1415285239



Next up, I threw a whole bunch of numbers from the graph in a speadsheet. For the RPM values listed, I pulled the maximum torque and the torque rating for best BSFC. From those two numbers, I calculated the manifold pressure for best BSFC (best bsfc / max torque * 14.5). These numbers correspond to the MAP values I see on my scangauge when cruising. Alternatively, you can use the % load values (best bsfc / max torque) if your instrumentation calculates engine load correctly (the Metro does not).

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1415285239



We can see the G10 Metro engine really likes about 73% load for best BSFC.

So, for me, I cruise at 45 mph / 2200 rpm for most of my commute. That means if my vacuum is close to 10.5, there is absolutely no benefit from P&Ging. I'm much better off just sticking at that load, gaining or loosing a few MPH and just riding out the hill.

Actually, reviewing the chart a little more shows I could probably be just fine with almost anything from 7.9 to 11.7 (the 283 circle on the chart) and loose less than 5%.


This was an interesting exercise for me. I had been using the rule of thumb of ~80% load for accelerating and cruising. This got me pretty close, but it turns out I should have slightly better results from loading the engine a little less. This also means I should be able to get away with a little less P&G and nobody ever complained about that. :) I've been using this technique for a day or two now and it seems to be working quite well. :thumbup:

P-hack 11-06-2014 10:54 AM

I never p&g up a hill, just p up (watching load more than rpm, unless traffic is too tight) and g down.

MetroMPG 11-06-2014 11:08 AM

Finally someone is getting around to writing some tips on how best to drive my car! :D

PaleMelanesian 11-06-2014 11:19 AM

I p&g always. Uphill may give a very short glide, so short I may not bother to eoc. Downhill is a nice long glide. But I'm still working the p&g cycle throughout. As the climb gets steeper, the glide gets shorter and shorter, until the point where there is no glide, and I'm at my target load/tps in a steady climb. I don't adjust that load, just the duration of the pulses and glides.

I don't have a specific BSFC chart for my car, just a "feel" for it based on the progress of my trip mpg with various approaches.

Ecky 11-06-2014 12:22 PM

When BSFC charts are made, what is taken into account? Is this at the flywheel? Accessories attached?

I would imagine that, in practice, EoC probably provides a little more gain than can be predicted by these charts, depending on how they're made.

That said, I don't EoC in my Insight as I figure the savings, in absolute terms, are probably peanuts compared with driving at 80% load in lean burn.

user removed 11-06-2014 12:44 PM

At 10 inches of vacuum steady, try pulsing at 2-3 inches and gliding as much as you can. Super shallow grades can allow you to store energy at higher bsfc. You get more power from the same amount of fuel at 3 inches, maybe even up to 5.

On sustained uphills but very shallow grades, you might even pulse the flat spots and use inertia as much as you can on the uphills.

If you are using engine on pulses, then go a little higher on your peak speed which increases your mileage in the glide.

regards
mech

Xist 11-06-2014 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 453792)
Finally someone is getting around to writing some tips on how best to drive my car! :D

If only someone had been in a position to do that before Daox bought his! :D

I do not see a chart for the HX.

j12piprius 11-06-2014 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaleMelanesian (Post 453794)
I p&g always. Uphill may give a very short glide, so short I may not bother to eoc. Downhill is a nice long glide. But I'm still working the p&g cycle throughout. As the climb gets steeper, the glide gets shorter and shorter, until the point where there is no glide, and I'm at my target load/tps in a steady climb. I don't adjust that load, just the duration of the pulses and glides.

That's exactly what I do, except dfco uphills because there's not enough time to keep shifting, and steep downhills, and eonc on the flat and moderate downhills. I'm planning to use a kill switch and eofc my next trip and see what happens. I still compare dwl up hills sometimes and feel that p&dfco gives me better results, keeping in mind my civic has a relatively high rpm.

Daox 11-06-2014 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 453792)
Finally someone is getting around to writing some tips on how best to drive my car! :D

Haha, funny.

This does make me want to pickup a vacuum gauge though. The SG does an okay job of showing the manifold pressure, but it does jump around a lot and its harder to truely know what the engine load is. An analog gauge would be great.

Daox 11-06-2014 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaleMelanesian (Post 453794)
I p&g always. Uphill may give a very short glide, so short I may not bother to eoc. Downhill is a nice long glide. But I'm still working the p&g cycle throughout. As the climb gets steeper, the glide gets shorter and shorter, until the point where there is no glide, and I'm at my target load/tps in a steady climb. I don't adjust that load, just the duration of the pulses and glides.

I don't have a specific BSFC chart for my car, just a "feel" for it based on the progress of my trip mpg with various approaches.

That is how I used to do it too. If you ever drive the 1.0L, things are quite a bit different. I just got back from a lunch meeting and on my highway (55 mph) trip home with some headwind, I had that MAP pegged at 10.5 pretty much the whole way. I let my speed fluctuate and I never got above 60 mph. I only got to coast a few places in the ~10 miles or so. Once I got off the highway, things were quite different. On my trip there things were quite different and I was P&Ging quite a bit.

Daox 11-06-2014 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 453809)
When BSFC charts are made, what is taken into account? Is this at the flywheel? Accessories attached?

I would imagine that, in practice, EoC probably provides a little more gain than can be predicted by these charts, depending on how they're made.

That said, I don't EoC in my Insight as I figure the savings, in absolute terms, are probably peanuts compared with driving at 80% load in lean burn.

I'm not entirely sure what is taken into account. I'd imagine the alternator is on the engine, but I'd highly doubt if they have anything else attached.

Daox 11-06-2014 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic (Post 453817)
At 10 inches of vacuum steady, try pulsing at 2-3 inches and gliding as much as you can. Super shallow grades can allow you to store energy at higher bsfc. You get more power from the same amount of fuel at 3 inches, maybe even up to 5.

On sustained uphills but very shallow grades, you might even pulse the flat spots and use inertia as much as you can on the uphills.

If you are using engine on pulses, then go a little higher on your peak speed which increases your mileage in the glide.

regards
mech


Its not actually 10.5 inches of vacuum. Its 10.5 psi of absolute pressure in the manifold. 14.5 would be WOT at sea level. So, the chart is telling me peak efficiency is ~4 psi of vacuum. This is the equivalent of the engine being 73% loaded as shown on the chart.

Sven7 11-06-2014 03:24 PM

Awesome writeup. Thanks! I just wish someone could dig up a Honda D series BSFC chart... unsurprisingly no luck on Honda-Tech.

Maybe one of these years I'll get an MPGuino and finally drive informed.

PaleMelanesian 11-06-2014 03:59 PM

I've found that an average of the charts out there works pretty well except in special cases like lean-burn or diesel.

dirtydave 11-06-2014 04:32 PM

What if you have much higher RPM's? 2800 at 60MPH?

Ecky 11-06-2014 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydave (Post 453875)
What if you have much higher RPM's? 2800 at 60MPH?

P&G should help even more, the worse the gearing. In my Del Sol, in places where I could cruise at ~30mpg steady state, I could get 50+mpg with aggressive P&G because of the huge losses from screaming down the highway at 4000+rpm with low load.

MetroMPG 11-06-2014 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydave (Post 453875)
What if you have much higher RPM's? 2800 at 60MPH?

Upshift!

:)

dirtydave 11-06-2014 05:05 PM

I wish I had a 10 Speed!!

Baltothewolf 11-06-2014 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydave (Post 453883)
I wish I had a 10 Speed!!

One time in stop and go traffic and I think you would change that tone :P. My dad does over 600 shifts a day (roughly) in a semi. Maybe this is why he drives automatics for his commute car? Lol.

dirtydave 11-06-2014 05:26 PM

lmao I have driven a truck too and I'd rather have a 10 speed over the terrible 6 speed auto's the new freightliners / internationals have.

I cannot do the stop and go!! I will leave a 10 car gap and just Idle down the road!! I'm looking at you Richmond VA!!

jcp123 11-06-2014 05:43 PM

P+g is tricky for me with the slush box. I usually do a steady throttle input up and down the hill unless I have an unusually steep grade.

PaleMelanesian 11-06-2014 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydave (Post 453875)
What if you have much higher RPM's? 2800 at 60MPH?

That's where I'm at. 2850 to be precise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 453881)
P&G should help even more, the worse the gearing. In my Del Sol, in places where I could cruise at ~30mpg steady state, I could get 50+mpg with aggressive P&G because of the huge losses from screaming down the highway at 4000+rpm with low load.

Yep. P&G helps even more the worse your gearing is, and the more overpowered your engine is. Compared to the Metro, I have both - poor gearing and a big engine.

serialk11r 11-07-2014 06:02 PM

I never glide up a hill unless it's a hill I can't really tell is a hill, because my engine gets about 50%-60% load in 5th when I can tell there's an incline and that's good enough for me.

serialk11r 11-07-2014 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 453882)
Upshift!

:)

lol, into Reverse? :P That's the gear under 5th for me, which makes the engine spin at 3250rpm for 60mph.

oldtamiyaphile 11-07-2014 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 454059)
lol, into Reverse? :P That's the gear under 5th for me, which makes the engine spin at 3250rpm for 60mph.

Just hit the handbrake first :D

oldtamiyaphile 11-07-2014 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlvs2run (Post 453841)
That's exactly what I do, except dfco uphills because there's not enough time to keep shifting, and steep downhills, and eonc on the flat and moderate downhills. I'm planning to use a kill switch and eofc my next trip and see what happens. I still compare dwl up hills sometimes and feel that p&dfco gives me better results, keeping in mind my civic has a relatively high rpm.

I have a feeling this is wrong. The reason P&G works is it maintains momentum, whereas DFCO doesn't. Keep in mind that OBD instrumentation is woefully inaccurate most of the time. When I first got my TDI which has virtually no engine braking (you can barely tell if it's in gear or neutral - simular effect to turning on the A/C while DFOC'ing a normal car), I tried P&G in DFCO for the first tanks, but P&G in neutral (EOnC) netted clearly better tank to tank results, even though SGII showed the opposite effect.


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