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Old 10-11-2008, 08:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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All of these are good reasons, but they're classic examples of in the box thinking. I'm sure there's a way to safely and reliably transfer heat from an exhaust, we just came upon the coolant idea first and it's easier.

Example: If you don't like toxic fumes and smells being transferred to the cabin along with the heat, use another medium as a buffer. Water/antifreeze responds to convection currents just like air does. Put heat exchanger from water mix to exhaust plumb to the coolant to air exchanger in the cabin. Bingo, best of both worlds! Sure it's not terribly efficient and would now be subject to a warm up time again, but you can't tell me that there's not more than enough heat in the exhaust and since the fluid for this purpose would be only for this purpose, it's quantity could be much less, therefore, warm up much faster.

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Old 10-11-2008, 08:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefirebuilds View Post
That's assuming that you and I agree that VW and Porsche heaters are sufficient. We don't.
I guess I'll spell it out in more detail then:

1. There is nothing, repeat, NOTHING restrictive to the exhaust flow in a VW/Corvair/aircraft exchanger system.

2. The air coming out of a VW/Corvair/aircraft heater in proper working order is so hot you can't even hold your hand next to the outlet. Efficient or not, it is plenty hot enough to do the job.

P.S. I'm not saying the air/air systems are superior. There is nothing more pathetic than the defroster on a Microbus.
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefirebuilds View Post
-heat is exchanged easier, and more efficiently in a fluid
But to be sure, the exhaust gas is a fluid also. A fluid can be a gas or liquid.
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Old 10-11-2008, 11:50 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by extragoode View Post
Example: If you don't like toxic fumes and smells being transferred to the cabin along with the heat, use another medium as a buffer. Water/antifreeze responds to convection currents just like air does. Put heat exchanger from water mix to exhaust plumb to the coolant to air exchanger in the cabin. Bingo, best of both worlds! Sure it's not terribly efficient and would now be subject to a warm up time again, but you can't tell me that there's not more than enough heat in the exhaust and since the fluid for this purpose would be only for this purpose, it's quantity could be much less, therefore, warm up much faster.
You would need alot of fluid, otherwise you will scorch the working fluid and it will brake down rather quickly.

the Honda N600 also has an air cooled engine with exhaust heat, a pin hole in the heat exchanger and you start to get light headed while driving if you turn the heat on, on VW's the heat exchanger was a costly part that wore out fast, something like a heat pipe could work well.
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:02 AM   #15 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=extragoode;66678]

Example: If you don't like toxic fumes and smells being transferred to the cabin along with the heat, use another medium as a buffer. Water/antifreeze responds to convection currents just like air does. Put heat exchanger from water mix to exhaust plumb to the coolant to air exchanger in the cabin. Bingo, best of both worlds! <snip>

Having a double - wall heat exchanger with fluid between them would bring a lot of the kind of safety we get with things like double-bottom tankers. However, the cost would go up a lot, and eventually, somebody would still let it fail.

There is plenty of heat conveniently available from the cooling system on most cars. When I see a motor so small that the rad is the same size as the heater core, I'll think about a valve to direct the coolant where it is needed. My metro warms up quite rapidly, because it works hard for its size.

The rule of thumb is that 25% of the heat in gasoline goes out the shaft, 25% out the rad, and 50% out the exhaust, so it is a rich source. I concur that it is most interesting as a way to feed an absorption cooler, or perhaps run the electrical generation.
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Cool

Check out <http://www.google.com/patents?id=yOBqAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=manifold+heater+ automobile&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1>

A manifold heater was the common way to heat a Cessna in history past and air cooled VW's. Don't know how the IBP (itty bitty planes) are heated today.

OBTW, a gasoline burning heater was common in the 30's. Fire hazard? You bet plus you could smell the fumes inside the car.

Manifold heaters would be a giant step backwards in safety & comfort.
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:57 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I was fascinated to discover that turboshaft helicopters are heated by air that is bled off from the compressor ahead of the combustion zone. The heat of compression is wasted, but the effect of the combined inefficiencies even that far along are sufficient to produce nice warm air. This is a lighhtweight and technically simple solution to cabin heat, not necessarily, or even likely, an efficient one.
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:18 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Bob View Post
I was fascinated to discover that turboshaft helicopters are heated by air that is bled off from the compressor ahead of the combustion zone. The heat of compression is wasted, but the effect of the combined inefficiencies even that far along are sufficient to produce nice warm air. This is a lighhtweight and technically simple solution to cabin heat, not necessarily, or even likely, an efficient one.
If you've flown in a commercial jet or turbuprop aircraft you've experienced pressurization with bleed air. It's passed through an air-to-air heat exchanger to alter the high temperature. Bleed air is used to deice the wing leading edges, pressurize fuel tanks, and other jobs that can be done with pneumatics.

The Boeing 787 is the first commercial aircraft to do away with bleed air to improve compressor efficiency. It removes a heavy, complex and leak-prone duct system to be replaced by new compact, lightweight, high-efficiency HVAC/pressurization systems originally developed for the Space Shuttle.
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Old 10-12-2008, 07:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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People who operated Beetles in cold weather country often use an auxiliary oil cooler as a heater. That worked a lot better than the OEM heater.
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Old 10-13-2008, 02:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Most if not all "itty bitty planes" still use exhaust heat to heat the cabin. Since they are air cooled this is probably the best way to do it.

During your training, instructors hammer it into your head to be on the lookout for carbon monoxide poisoning, and how to combat it. Since no training is required for driving a car, exhaust leaks would be much more of a problem than they are in aircraft.

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