Why does Honda hate their customers so much?
 

Wanted to expand my territorial radius from bicycling so picked up an old Gold Wing. It sat unused for many years but I got her going... but not stopping. At first the brakes did not work. Added fluid, flushed, bled... voila! Stoppage! I thought I was golden. But later on... the brakes did not RELEASE. :mad:

Yeah I'll just skip over the intermediate part here... So the calipers need rebuilding- the bike has three. I go to Honda and price parts:

Seals (2/caliper): $11.58 x 3 = 34.74

Dust seals (2/caliper): $12.58 x 3 = 37.74

Pistons (2/caliper): $74.58 x 3 = 223.74
_________________________________________

$296.22 for a handful of glorified O-rings and some walnut-sized cast pistons. Oh~ forgot the Cali sales tax of nearly 10%!!!

It gets better: what if, since I have almost no tools at my disposal, I buy caliper assemblies?

Caliper: $342.00 x 3 = $1,026 :eek:

Oh yeah- sales tax too! :mad:

For that I get a palm-sized aluminum casting with minimal machining done to it, with the pistons and seals. No labor. No new brake shoes. No fluid. No rotors. No brakes lines. No master cylinder service. No rocket science or gold plating either. Cripes, I could probably get a machine shop to build them from scratch from billet for less.

One can only conclude that Honda hates their customers. You wouldn't do that to anyone you respect, would you?

Brakes not releasing sounds like a Master Cylinder problem.
Could be some crud has jammed up one of the fluid return paths. Had this happen on a Honda M/C I used on one of my bikes a while back.
Brakes dragging would be calipers. Or has this got some weird integrated brake system?

Front M/C was the very first thing I tore into. There's a widdle teeny hole in there that has to be open. It's so teeny a wire plucked from a wire brush was too fat! :eek: Luckily it cleared with the extended nozzle for the brake cleaner jammed up onto it.

It's the calipers. Corrosion built up behind the seals and dust seals, pressing them VERY tightly to the pistons. One piston I haven't gotten out yet is resisting over 100 psi!

Oh, I'll get through this... NO THANKS TO HONDA. :mad:

I've always found Honda motorcycle parts to be very reasonable priced, you don't say what year your bike is, but it sounds like your prices are a bit high, I've had good luck with MrCycles.com, it's also a good site to have to see how things go togther.

Not that this helps your problem, but Chicago does have a 10% sales tax.

This isn't the only factor, but when sales of new products are down, prices of replacement parts spike. They all do it. C'est la Merde.

I'd hunt down some used calipers next time, there are many motorcycle recyclers found online. Typically the calipers seize because the exterior rubber seals fail and allow the piston to rust and then it doesn't slide back into the caliper when the brakes are released. Honda oem parts are always expensive, head gaskets, water pumps, and timing belts are worth buying, the rest I either hunt down used or get it from another parts supplier. My friends body shop does alot of honda's and they always complain that the little plastic clips that hold the trim on break and cost $2.90 each and each car takes about 30 of them!

Some MrCycles parts are about 1/2 of local before taxes and shipping are figured in. I just don't think even a MrCycles part is reasonably priced. Their seals, which are basically little square-section O-rings, are $6 each! You know there is nothing special about O-rings in materials, design, or manufacture. They are fractions of a penny each to produce. The whole seal kit could be sold at a profit for a fraction of what the price is now. And the calipers would come to about $600- again, no rocket science involved with calipers, they are just little aluminum castings with little machining ops done to them. In comparison to the $1100 retail Honda cost for three calipers, I can get a rebuilt Chevrolet V8 for less than $1000! Yes, that is 600 lbs of equipment with all machining done (what- 50x the amount of machine work compared to those calipers?) plus all new pistons rings bearings oil pump gaskets you name it. There is no comparison.

Honda hates it's customers.

That said, thanks for the link Ryland. In this case I am hopefully going to prevail over that SOB by servicing what I have. When I do come to a spot that I can't Mcgyver out of, they would be a good place to check.

Not sure there has been a replacement parts price spike. In the 35 years I've dealt with motorsports, they have always been high.

rockauto.com carries motorcycle parts. Worth a try.

Thanks for the tip~ but could only find some engine and electrical on there.

What year is your goldwing?

1982.

If Honda Motorsports was in charge of rebuilt Chevrolet V8s, I bet they'd charge $100,000 for each one.

I have the front calipers apart right now. The pistons are serviceable (not perfect but not shot) and the bores are as well. I'm going to re-use the seals, as the piston seals aren't torn or overly damaged. The piston dust seals look kinda crappy but they aren't torn either so back in they go. The slider seals are bad but I'll put em back on anyway and just grease the slider pins generously. The main problems I'm dealing with at this time are corrosion in the seal grooves, and one piston (ain't there ALWAYS one???) that won't come out with air pressure.

For cleaning out the grooves I guess holding an allen wrench with a pliars makes a sort of OK cleaning tool. For that last piston I'll have to complete servicing the other front caliper, install it, reconnect the other caliper to the line, and pump that SOB out with hydraulic pressure. :mad:

You may be in luck, at least according to this. I have a couple CB650SCs so LMK if ya need pistons, or at least that last piston.

Stainless... niiiice! :thumbup:

Won't get to that last piston til tomorrow.

Alot of the cost in parts is storage and inventory of those 25 year old parts that came from Japan, the brake calipers square o-ring seals also act as a return spring for the piston, as it is what pulls the piston away from the brake pad/disk so your brakes don't drag.

Loctite O-ring Splicing kit.
 

FWIW. I used to work on vibroseis trucks (20 tons curb weight).
Anyway there were a ton of different o-rings in various sizes; some with round cross sections, some square cross sections, some 90 durometer, some 70 durometer (durometer roughly equaled how hard/stiff the rubber was - how much pressure it could stand up to.) We tried to keep a stock of all the various sizes, but naturally there were times when we ran through them quicker than expected. At that point we got out the Loctite O-ring Splicing kit. It came with 70 durometer o-ring material. We tried to not ever run out of the 90 durometer o-rings, but when we did we'd cut down a larger o-ring that had the same cross sectional size. The spliced o-rings seemed to hold up just as well as the regular ones.

Ryland: Honda used to be somewhat decent about using a "parts bin" approach to engineering- if they already had a suitable part on the shelf from something else, they'd use it. Yeah. Parts commonality = good for simplicity and customers.

Now it seems they completely re-engineer the entire machine every year so that not even the bolts interchange. Special parts = profit for them.

You are right about the function of the square O-ring.

Testdrive: Cool, I'd completely forgotten about splicing O-rings! But... I won't be doing that on my square caliper seals. I'd be OK with it for the dust seals. In fact, I'm not particularly impressed with the effectiveness of the design of the original dust seals (ribbed). If the ones I have were in any worse condition I'd stick regular round O-rings in there and I bet they'd work just fine.

I had a similar problem with my '82 Yamaha 1100 a couple years ago and lots of my parts had been discontinued, but I finally found them at a premium price. You might try soaking the calipers in brake cleaner and just working with them a little bit each day for a few days to help free the piston. It doesn't matter what brand you motorcycle is parts for them are going to cost you a premium price because they are considered recreational vehicles.

Well I just discovered that my little two mile test ride the other day- the one where I discovered the caliper problem- caused one of the front rotors to heat up to where it warped.

Well, the ocean is nearby so maybe I'll just dump the whole thing in there. :mad:

You shoulda seen the bill when I was looking for parts for my '73 7e Yamaha.

Might be 7something else, I forget it's been so long. But dang, some parts it needed were nowhere to be found in North America. Or Mexico. Or Japan. Japan! I mean, that's where it's from! They should have at least a few of the dang things still tootling around over there, rght? No leftover parts at all?

Nuts.

Maybe I'll have better luck with the '82 Express!

What a failure... I mean, meet my new fuel economy mod! I'll ride that $&%(@^ without one front caliper, thus reducing drag! :thumbup:

Welcome to the world of older motorcycles. Parts for those bikes are always sky high, whether it's Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, whatever.

Sometimes the newer bike parts are just as rediculas. Local Yamaha dealer wants MSRP of $24 for a base gasket for my 2005. I can go with a quality brand and get all the top end gaskets and orings for just a few bucks more. Or I can go with a cheap brand, and get everything for $18. Unfortunately my custom build requires 2 base gaskets (one on each side of a spacer plate), and no one wants to sell me just a base gasket, besides Yamaha. I've got 4 extras sitting in the garage right now, luckily I found em for $16 a piece online.

There are a couple of problems, one is volume. Think about how many cars are out there vs street bikes, plus how many of those cars share parts. I read some where once (good, solid fact, huh?) that motorcycles make up less than 3% of all registered vehicles in the US. There might have been 150,000 brake calipers produced that will fit your bike. There might be 50,000 million produced that will fit, say, a F150.

The other problem is markup on these lower volume, recreational parts. I've seen service parts that cost ~$2.50 to produce, are sold to the customer for ~$4, and then sold thru dealers for over $80! That's an extreme example, but true.

I paid the Honda dealer $24 for a single O-ring that seals the float bowl to the carburetor body. The dealer tried charging me $37, but I quoted the $24.95 price from babbittsonline.com, and the dealer beat Babbit's. Still, what a complete ripoff.

Before shelling out the $24, I tried using silicone and even tried making my own rubber gasket, but both of those sucked. I'm sure the O-ring cost a couple cents to manufacture.

Motorcycle boneyards are your friend.

Yeah, definitely true. Unfortunately, when it comes to buying gaskets and other rubber bits, the junkyard parts are just as age-worn as mine are.

If I ever need a whole carb or head, the junkyard will be my first stop.

Just went through this with a Tecumseh 12 HP engine on my dad's garden tractor. We ended up getting a water neck gasket for some random vehicle, and cutting the edges down after bolting the bowl back together with it on.

Next time, I think I'll just cut a gasket out of a piece of cardboard beer box or something.

I'm pretty much at one extreme end of the cheapness spectrum... but I do keep a few sheets of gasket paper (various thicknesses, some rubberized, etc.) on hand.

I have a few sheets of rubber, a few sheets of silicone stuff, some paper, cardboard (my dad drinks beer) and some cork, as well.

If I can't make a gasket for it, you shouldn't be using it. :P

I am a new member but not spamming despite the link.

honda-sm.com -in Marina del rey is a great honda dealer. Maybe those parts are indeed insanely priced but I agree with earlier poster that in general honda's parts are in the reasonable range.

japanese characteristic in general..they make proprietary changes for wealth. they do not care what is at the other end scratching thier heads in disbelief from one year to the next. It is in everything thay have ever shipped to the world. Old ford menatility is still churning in its grave...
The oldest subaru still has me stumped in disbelief in all aspects of every part of every change in newer subes. Absolutley unnecessary and bizarre to go through so many changes they hang themself in cost. it all comes back around. It is an old CRIME actually..
When you find fantastic workamanship selling for 500 bucks froma given company, in todays cost exceeding the current product quality by hundreds of thousands of dollars in reality.. the current product s worth the old cost of the old one..and less quality to boot...selling for 3 times as much... It is the "secret" business revealing itself. Stay alert, learn facts. It is indeed part of this centuries biggest world historied crime.
My go with that honda would be find a mainstream bike to hack into it. even japan has some 80s years staying with one successful think for a deacde at a time or so (about as long as I have found one run of anyhting by japan in the motorized vehicle category). As I said, really stay dynamical and search around.
The frustration with all this, is that american collapsed on itself following this disease as if it needed to be respected. All so predictable, many years ago. Think of ford and the swapability that disappeared, it cuts down on greedy billionarism.

Exactly. GM and VW were pretty good from the '50s through the '70s too. Many parts interchanged between models and especially model years; they didn't excessively throw away good engineering with "change for the sake of change", you could go to the local Pamida or KMart for brake and ignition parts; and they were good quality and they were cheap.

Now that's all gone. :mad:

I try not to get angry. I finally got a mig welder, there is the steel problem with a hope, finding sites that generalize even modern ecus, and of course hacks that broaden parts supply. I can say the older sube taught me this...involuntarily. there is no choice. That bike is a winner, I would attempt it the same as an old sube in regards to keeping it going. I want the flat four honda bike, very rare however.

Yes, mine is the flat four. I've hardly ridden it at all yet but I think it will prove to be decent. They have a good reputation.

I did score some used parts from a local guy that dabbles in motorcycles. I will get that damned thing on the road yet! With no help from Honda, thank them very much NOT. :mad:

Well, there's always the possibility of using calipers from another model and/or brand. May take some fiddling or some light machining but I'll bet you could find a close fit. With luck you can find an interchangeable part. I'm sure you've queried the experienced minds on historic Gold Wing sites. Aftermarket or enthusiast groups are the way to go for used original parts, many thanks to the internet.

Parts sales has got to be a significant part of the profit model for motorcycle dealers as unit sales are seasonal and the lights have to stay on somehow. My local shops are incompetent, rude and overpriced. For the few new parts I've needed I've used ronayersmotorsports.com, seem to have relatively good prices.

One can only hope that more manufacturers begin subscribing to long model runs. My old Kawasaki was made from 1986 to 2006 with only one minor update. It was profitable for Kawasaki even toward the end when sales were very low as the development costs had long since been amortized. There are a few other models out there like the Suzuki GS500, Kawasaki EX500 and Honda Rebel and others I'm forgetting. They are all very competent bikes for thier intended purpose but don't draw the wow factor and the showroom traffic like the ones that are re-designed every 2 years. The long model run bikes are the "step-down" ones in the corner of the showroom after the buyer decides they don't want to spend so much on thier new ride.

BTW how many years has the chebby 350 been in production? How many billion sold?

I am not old enough to remember that directly, but I'm way into classic cars largely for their simplicity.

I was in a funk for my Dad's '00 Passat V6 4motion wagon about three weels ago. I looked up a stack or fairly common replacement items (air filter, wireset, alternator, starter, and some other stuff I can't remember). The list of the same parts ran over $1500 for the Passat, but only $342 for the Mustang :p even friggin' plug wires were $140 for the VW :eek::confused: whereas the oil filter that goes on my Mustang fits almost all the other engines Ford had in that era, including straight sixes, big blocks, and mid-blocks, to give one small example of interchangeability.

*knock on wood* Harley's way expensive on parts, but they've thankfully been very helpful in going out of their way to make me happy.

Oil filters are a poor example of interchangeability, actually, because several of them interchange between Vehicle Manufacturers. For instance, it's quite common practice to replace OEM filters with larger ones from other manufacturers, as long as the basic components of the filters are identical.

i.e. drainback valves, location of components, etc.

True. First example that came to mind. Ford's Motorcraft FL1A and FL1HP fit almost any engine Ford offered in the 60's.

$140 for some plug wires. Someone's a$$ needs to be kicked. :mad:

That makes them a great example of interchangeability then. Like tire valve stems. Fairly universal. Except maybe VW has a special one for their ****.

Slightly less mad at Honda these days- after much gnashing of teeth, spending of money, and MacGyvering of parts and processes, it's safe to say the thing is reliable now. And... it is fun to ride.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...182010a001.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...182010a004.jpg

Made a custom mod to the master cylinder to ensure full brake release, that of drilling out the transfer port some. The stealership would have simply put a new one on for $500.