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-   -   Winter tires LRR? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/winter-tires-lrr-35579.html)

hispanicpanic 09-02-2017 11:03 PM

Winter tires LRR?
 
I see a lot of MPG competitions where people use some really obscure brand of winter tires (competitions are held in warm months). I havn't been able to find anything on the internet about winter tires offering low rolling resistance, but is anyone familiar with any comparisons between winter tires and tires rated for low rolling resistance?

me and my metro 09-03-2017 01:09 AM

Look on Tirerack.com, they will sort by size. Then pick extreme winter and then Eco Focus for green tires.

Ecky 09-03-2017 08:58 AM

Nokian advertises many of their winter tires to be LRR, and my experience has been that even Hakkapelitta 4's, which aren't formally rated as LRR (too old a design?) are within spitting distance of the best all seasons available for my car. They're also incredibly good snow tires.

hispanicpanic 09-03-2017 10:23 AM

So does that mean winter tires do, or do not have a better LRR than the standard advertised LRR tires that are all season/summer tires. I live in texas and it never snows or ices, so i really am just looking for something with the lowest possible LRR.

puddleglum 09-03-2017 10:40 AM

Nokian makes excellent winter tires and they claim most are LLR. My experience is they are. I noticed no improvement in mileage when I changed from Nokian WR's (all weather LLR tire) to my Bridgstone Ecopia's ( well rated LLR tire). My Hakkapellita R's are better than than the Michelin's before them in snow and ice. They give a little worse mileage, but that is mostly because they are oversize and much heavier IMO.

That said, don't even think about putting winter tires on in a hot climate. there is no benefit at all and they won't last. Find a well rated all season or summer tire.

Ecky 09-03-2017 11:47 AM

Yeah, winter tires use a rubber compound which is too soft in warm weather, you'll eat the tires off in a few thousand miles.

freebeard 09-03-2017 12:11 PM

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5z8ivpd7a...640/rfervw.JPG
Just A Car Guy: The magic triangle of tire technology

Based on this, look for tire with silica/silane in the rubber compound. In Texas I'd be worried about hydroplaning.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ajBoFzZRQ...79703420_o.jpg
http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2017/08/prop-and-skeg-marks-on-top-of-van-only.html

me and my metro 09-03-2017 05:46 PM

That's a great picture of the van! I usually hit stumps with my prop not mini vans.

hispanicpanic 09-03-2017 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puddleglum (Post 548891)
Nokian makes excellent winter tires and they claim most are LLR. My experience is they are. I noticed no improvement in mileage when I changed from Nokian WR's (all weather LLR tire) to my Bridgstone Ecopia's ( well rated LLR tire). My Hakkapellita R's are better than than the Michelin's before them in snow and ice. They give a little worse mileage, but that is mostly because they are oversize and much heavier IMO.

That said, don't even think about putting winter tires on in a hot climate. there is no benefit at all and they won't last. Find a well rated all season or summer tire.

Thanks! That answers my question :)

CapriRacer 09-04-2017 09:14 AM

Unfortunately, the image is misleading. It implies that you can get *Green Tires* - that is, tires will Low Rolling Resistance - AND also get better grip while maintaining good wear properties.

What the image doesn't explain is that tires with simple substitution of silica/silane for carbon black are WORSE for treadwear and the rubber compound has to be readjusted to get that treadwear back - AND most importantly - that tires with excellent wear properties are NOT going to be good for RR.

PLUS the term *LRR* is a relative term. It means *better for RR compared to tires with the same grip and wear properties*. A LRR tire can have worse RR than a conventional tire because the tread compound can be reformulated to emphasize any of those particular properties (at the expense of the others!)

freebeard 09-04-2017 10:18 AM

https://www.thoughtco.com/silica-enh...pounds-3234486

According to this, the benefit is from hysterisis:

Quote:

Somehow, the use of silane allows both natural and synthetic rubber to bond together much tighter at a molecular level, and produces a rubber compound that has both low hysteresis at low frequencies and high hysteresis at high frequencies, allowing tire engineers to literally both have and eat their cake. The magic triangle has been blown to smithereens by the magic compound. According to a paper on this issue in the journal Rubber World: “The use of silica can result in a reduction in rolling resistance of 20% and can also improve wet skid performance by as much as 15%, substantially improving braking distances at the same time.
I don't have a lot invested in this, I'm just gathering information in anticipation of a new set of tires.

CapriRacer 09-04-2017 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 548959)
https://www.thoughtco.com/silica-enh...pounds-3234486

According to this, the benefit is from hysterisis:



I don't have a lot invested in this, I'm just gathering information in anticipation of a new set of tires.

Allow me to give everyone a short cut:

Pretty much EVERY tire uses silica nowadays. It's old technology. The question is, how can you tell what the RR level is compared to the tire's grip and treadwear?

Unfortunately, you can't. Grip and treadwear are delineated by the UTQG rating - required for all P type tires (except for winter tires!), but RR is more complex and doesn't lend itself to simple testing/labeling. It varies by tire size - even for tires built exactly the same. HOWEVER, RR varies more between make/models than it does for size, further complicating the issue.

This means that trying to gain an improved RR by changing tire size yields small changes, where changing make/model yield larger changes.

A proposal to change the UTQG rating system to include RR has stalled. I don't know what the current proposal is (it was announced, but not published!), but a previous proposal ran afoul of the problem is tire size and how to label.

Galvatron1 12-02-2019 03:44 PM

1 Attachment(s)
It looks like no one's discussed winter tires here in 2 years. Has anything changed?

I have steep hills, lots of snow and ice. R2 or G3 for the Camry? Both have equal LRR properties? Any new options, or are nokian still the best LRR Winter tires? Any other tires on the attached cr winter tire list, LRR & worth considering?

Grant-53 12-02-2019 05:53 PM

I just put Cooper Evolution tires on the '04 Forester and Goodyear Viva 3 on the front of the '07 Accord just in time for the ice storm.

NeilBlanchard 12-03-2019 12:44 PM

Nokian Hakka R3s are excellent. They are "ultra" low rolling resistance; while the eNtyre are just low rolling resistance.

Galvatron1 12-03-2019 01:13 PM

Alright, where can I get the lowest price? Wanted to get them today, if I get a great deal. Did I miss the Black Friday specials?

roosterk0031 12-03-2019 01:40 PM

I've ordered lots from simpletire but sometimes simpletire and others sell them cheaper on ebay. Ordered a pair from walmart.com ended up coming from simpletire.

Galvatron1 12-03-2019 02:58 PM

P215/55R17

Looks like best price goes to Simpletire.com

$158.38 + tax free shipping R3

Wrg4 $121.47 + tax free shipping

Looks like today is the last day to get the Black Friday deal, ends wed 10am.

Galvatron1 12-03-2019 09:30 PM

I got the R3 today, looking forward to higher fuel efficiency!!

Consumer Reports says wet braking is poor, handling, hydoplaning, dry braking is not good. Can anyone share their R3 experience with these properties?

Galvatron1 01-12-2020 09:43 AM

Unfortunately, sears refunded, said they weren't able to get it in. Guess I'm stuck with OHTSU all seasons this winter. Fortunately, not much snow this year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard (Post 612709)
Nokian Hakka R3s are excellent. They are "ultra" low rolling resistance; while the eNtyre are just low rolling resistance.

How can you tell R3's are ultra low rolling resistance, while eNtyre are just low rolling resistance? I didn't see it listed as such on simpletire.com. Which all seasons are ultra low rolling resistance & which is ranked #1 as the absolute best in fuel efficiency?

NeilBlanchard 01-13-2020 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galvatron1 (Post 612747)
I got the R3 today, looking forward to higher fuel efficiency!!

Consumer Reports says wet braking is poor, handling, hydoplaning, dry braking is not good. Can anyone share their R3 experience with these properties?

We have Nokian Hakka R3 on three cars, and they are equal or better on all those things than any other winter tire.

NeilBlanchard 01-13-2020 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galvatron1 (Post 614939)
How can you tell R3's are ultra low rolling resistance, while eNtyre are just low rolling resistance? I didn't see it listed as such on simpletire.com. Which all seasons are ultra low rolling resistance & which is ranked #1 as the absolute best in fuel efficiency?

This is how Nokian rates them, and having owned both, I can confirm it. I buy them from the guy who won an early EcoModder contest:

https://ecomodder.com/blog/20-yearol...l-economy-run/

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...out-14205.html

He got 118MPG on Hakka R (first generation).

Galvatron1 01-13-2020 02:53 PM

Thanks, bud. What I wouldn't do to get 118 mpg, is it possible in a non hybrid 2014 Camry se?

What is the most fuel efficient all seasons tire?

NeilBlanchard 01-14-2020 12:21 PM

If you need a "real" all season tire - and by that I mean actual snow and ice in the winter - then I like the Nokian WR. They are currently WR G4: https://www.nokiantires.com/tires/pa...weather-tires/

Nokian call them an all-weather tire.

These are roughly similar to the eNtyre for rolling resistance.

freebeard 01-14-2020 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galvatron1
Thanks, bud. What I wouldn't do to get 118 mpg, is it possible in a non hybrid 2014 Camry se?

Yes, but you won't do it with a set of tires.

Anything is possible. I'd suggest half from drivetrain and half from aerodynamics. A good benchmark for aerodynamics would be Aerocivic

For the drivetrain I'd see if there is room for a 20hp E-assist altermotor.

Xist 01-15-2020 11:04 AM

I would settle for 117 MPG, but I have low standards.

Galvatron1 01-16-2020 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 615082)

For the drivetrain I'd see if there is room for a 20hp E-assist altermotor.

Never heard of that before, how does it boost mpg, how much mpg gains & how much to get one installed?

freebeard 01-16-2020 11:53 PM

  • Start-stop and regen.
  • It depends
  • All custom work using OEM components
It appears that this would be classed as a mild hybrid. An ICE with a belt-driven altermotor to enable start-stop (and parking maneuvers), regeneration and load balancing (20hp on tap and it saves your brakes).

Everything else I know is in that thread, but you could compare the performance of the hybrid and non-hybrid versions of the E-assisted vehicles. Honda's IMA system may be similar.

Tmugz88 10-13-2022 12:32 AM

I was searching for some information on a good set of Allseason tires that will handle the harsh winters in Wisconsin. That search led me to this thread. What are some additional or NEW options got winter or all season tires that you all have used ?

I noticed the Nokian WRG4s seem to do well all year. However reviews seem to show a complaint on how they wear and "howling" after 10k.

With needing a new set of tires ideally a good set of all-seasons would be the most cost effective, but I'm open to all ideas.

Ecky 10-13-2022 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tmugz88 (Post 675712)
Living in Wisconsin has caused me to search for some dedicated winter tires. The problem im running into is needing tires but also needing something that performs well in the winter. I came across this thread and wanted to ask if anyone has any insight on any of the tires discussed. Or potentially new tires thay you are presently using. I'm tossing the idea around of a dedicated winter tire or if getting a higher end allseason like the WRG4s would be a good alternative.

Even the best all seasons fall well short of even low quality winter tires. The very best are probably Michelin's Cross Climates. In terms of winter tires, Nokian and Michelin pretty consistently come out on top both in terms of performance and rolling resistance.

Tmugz88 10-13-2022 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 675714)
Even the best all seasons fall well short of even low quality winter tires. The very best are probably Michelin's Cross Climates. In terms of winter tires, Nokian and Michelin pretty consistently come out on top both in terms of performance and rolling resistance.

That is definitely my concern however for our household it comes down to cost and we can't afford two full sets of tires and potentially another set of rims. I originally called around for rims and no local scrapyard has 4x100n15.6 or anything 4x100 bolt pattern .

So that's where I'm starting to lean towards Allseason due to funding and availability of items.

Ecky 10-13-2022 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tmugz88 (Post 675715)
That is definitely my concern however for our household it comes down to cost and we can't afford two full sets of tires and potentially another set of rims. I originally called around for rims and no local scrapyard has 4x100n15.6 or anything 4x100 bolt pattern .

So that's where I'm starting to lean towards Allseason due to funding and availability of items.

Honda Fit, and many of the early 2000's Civics were 4x100 and 15 inch. Corollas too, up to a certain point?

freebeard 10-13-2022 11:32 AM

https://ecomodder.com/forum/member-f...6-100-1255.jpg

My Notchback Types III and Superbeetles all had 4x100, sorry to hear there are none in your scrapyard any more.

Tmugz88 10-13-2022 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 675720)
https://ecomodder.com/forum/member-f...6-100-1255.jpg

My Notchback Types III and Superbeetles all had 4x100, sorry to hear there are none in your scrapyard any more.

Thank you for the reply , I'm not certain there aren't any locally I was told by several yards there aren't. Ideally I'd like to be able to swap my tires and not just buy one dedicated set. I travel throughout the snowbelt of WI and with our move to more central WI we are going to get hit with more lake effect snow (see link). I believe it's more of a concern for my wife than mine with snow tires over a good quality set of allseasons . But as any husband knows ... happy wife happy life .

I'll call the same yards and request the rims by number again and see if I can come.up with a set .

http://www.thedirectory.org/cities/W

Tmugz88 10-13-2022 04:08 PM

Actually located a set I'll be picking up tomorrow after again going to the Ole faithfull craigslist and finding what I couldn't previously.

https://sheboygan.craigslist.org/wto...544036479.html

The seller said he'd take $80 so I'll be snagging them tomorrow. He confirmed they are 4x100, and im thinking depending on the condition I might try and sell the tires for something like $40 for the set to recoupe some of my cash .

Tmugz88 10-30-2022 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 675716)
Honda Fit, and many of the early 2000's Civics were 4x100 and 15 inch. Corollas too, up to a certain point?

The rims I bought didn't fit , rhey were removed from an 04 honda according to the guy i bought them from. They bolt up but the front calipers are pressed right up to the rim. Thay won't allow the calipers to release which is how I figured out the issue , the vehicle wouldn't move.

Aside from spacers I belive they and the mounting of my winter tires were a waste of money.

freebeard 10-30-2022 11:42 PM

(:()

Tmugz88 10-31-2022 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 676278)
(:()

Imagine my surprise when I got them done and realized the car couldn't be moved.

Back to the drawing board.

Ecky 10-31-2022 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tmugz88 (Post 676276)
The rims I bought didn't fit , rhey were removed from an 04 honda according to the guy i bought them from. They bolt up but the front calipers are pressed right up to the rim. Thay won't allow the calipers to release which is how I figured out the issue , the vehicle wouldn't move.

Aside from spacers I belive they and the mounting of my winter tires were a waste of money.

Ahh, not the right offset. Spacers are the only way then. 5mm typically does the trick, and works without any foolery with the lugs.

Tmugz88 10-31-2022 05:26 PM

I've never used spacers, are they safe to use? May seem dumb but I've worked on my own cars for some time and haven't used any and don't know anyone at the moment who does .

I located the set I'd need based on 4x100 and the part number I was told by the local parts store.

Dorman 711-915 4 Lug Wheel Spacers https://a.co/d/72UGVJ5


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