Working on hydrogen kit 60%savings.
 

Hi, I have been working on a my car with a hydrogen kit and a controller. I have managed to save 32 % fuel. The produseres claim that you can save 60% with hydrogen teknologi? Any one installed a HHO kit before?


Birk

You may find someone here who has installed such a system, but you will also find that that person is not often taken seriously.

Mods, I smell unicorn.

Thanks for the support, it helps to hear of one with hho working, I'm Working on a cell, trying to figure out how to wire it so it kicks off when the engine in my prius does, most report 25-50%, except for-sale scams who say 100%, I think the farther in the intake the better for mpg, but more likely for efi system to counteract.

The principle behind HHO is this:

Your engine normally takes gasoline, burns 98-100% of it, and turns it into mechanical energy to turn the tires.

HHO uses electrical energy (which is created at a loss with mechanical energy by the alternator, which drags on the engine and reduces power / fuel economy) to make hydrogen which is fed back into the engine and burned along with gasoline to give you the power back that you've taken from it through the alternator. Taking only the energy contained in the system into account, HHO will always be a loss because you're converting energy back and forth several times at a loss, resulting in a net loss. It's for this reason that HHO inevitably ends up in the unicorn corral.

It's possible you might save a few percent in fuel if you have a very poorly designed engine that just happened to come from the factory better designed to burn a hydrogen mix than pure gasoline (more likely you'd lose a few percent), but you'd need to break the laws of physics to get a 30-60% increase in fuel economy. There simply isn't much you can do to improve the combustion efficiency in something like, say, a Prius engine, and any real improvements in fuel economy will come from reducing weight, improving aerodynamics, or getting rid of other parasitic losses such as friction/rolling resistance. Claims that show improvement with HHO are either poorly collected data, or are exceptions to the rule.

Be very skeptical when reading about these products.

Putting an HHO kit on a prius has to be the worst idea in the history of ideas.

Why not stick with whats proven to work?

If We had stuck with what's proven to work, We would still walk everywhere.

Well HHO has been proven countless times to NOT work out on the street. OP should search here for the numerous existing HHO debates if he wants to save himself a lot of grief here and in his garage.

Atomic weight of oxygen = 15.999
Atomic weight of 2 hydrogen molecules = 2.016

So you have a total atomic weight of just over 18, of which only 11% is actually capable of producing energy. Oxygen, being an oxidizer, has no energy potential.

A liter of HHO has the same potential energy as 1.5 wooden matches. Try running your car on that level of energy, even a liter per second would not even come close.

Thats 3600 liters an hour.

regards
mech

hypermiler these guys are correct. you will fail to acheive any positive effects. more energy is expended than you get back. the idea is that a certain pulse pattern of current and frequency is somehow magical! (browns gas) . it does not exist ,no magic pulse pattern or modulated signal is going to make it work. (i wish it could) . ive repaired a few of these kits for people who have burned up their outputs .trying to get them to work. have fun and be carful.

I hear what your saying, but how could there be so many positive posts from people who gain nothing from it? please see "a gift to hho sceptics" in the unicorn corral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3LVhNj5Hf0

What does this guy get out of it, 10minute video on something that does not work? I'm confused!

Why is this not more popular than "Twilight?" Logic I: Tools for Thinking/Why Girls Should Study Logic

If the hydrogen is created on demand, what's the throttle response like. If your making hydrogen and storing it, it will leak out of anything.

But you could vent the Oxygen into the cabin, so there's that.

If you could generate enough HHO for the system efficiency to increase, why not just keep going until you need no liquid fuel whatsoever.

And you could wipe out the oil industry in a few years with your new "PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE" that creates power from nothing but water.

Why do we waste our time on this forum when the truly "INFORMED" have already solved mankinds energy needs for all eternity.

regards
mech

Brilliant!...lol.

I did some reading on these kits a while back and it seems that these HHO systems are good for cleaning intakes and combustion chambers, and that any increase in MPG are due to the intakes and valves etc becoming "renewed" and clean again.
So, perhaps any FE gains (perceived or actual) are due to carbon build-up removal, and have nothing to do with HHO at all...lol.

It doesn't matter...I don't know anything anyway...lol, I'm just following along. This is great stuff.

Rem:thumbup:

I surrender!

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ics-22462.html

Did you read all of it?

I still surrender!

So hho scam people make fake forums hoping u will try their product when your homemade one doesn't work.

It's probably some combination of that, and confirmation bias in those who've spent money on the products. Most want to see a return on a something they've spent hundreds of dollars on, so they interpret the (often insufficient) data they have favorably.

Never give up. Never surrender.
 

If you know what you have, you should be firm in your belief - belief based on evidence. Continue forward to collect more evidence.

Just go ahead and build your devices and take your steps. Be as open minded as you can and continue to learn as you gain experience. That experience will allow you to filter out the dross that collects around provocative subjects such as HHO.

The important thing is to understand the skepticism toward HHO is well warranted. Starting a thread in the Unicorn Corral is not an issue if you understand this standing can be reversed and the topic/thread can be moved out of the Corral if you can provide substantial evidence that meets or exceeds the Sagan Test.

The bottom line is the need to build, test and document to a higher degree than the pie tin and Coraplast crowd. You will come under scrutiny that is greater than the norm on this forum. You must have a much thicker skin than the rest. And that is as it should be.

If you need any help on your build, go ahead and disclose on a build thread and I can provide help on the matter both theoretical, practical and with hardware.

Most of the reasonable ridicule will come from people who are good contributors on this forum. If you test well, you can sway them. The rest - don't worry about.

The pie tin and coraplast crowd at least try to follow the teachings of aerodynamics, awell established subdiscipline of fluid mechanics.

The HHO crowd are a bunch of pseudoscience following perpetual motion machine builders.

I think that aero mods are the easiest way to boost Fe, but I think engine efficiency needs to be looked into more, I mean, 22% efficiency? That's terrible!

And who said anything about running on hho? Fe boost has been the only goal.

I have installed dozens of systems.
 

Do you care to ridicule my credentials?

This forum is a collection of hobbyists who enjoy a certain topic. At times, this forum tries to pretend it is otherwise.

On the side, it should be noted that the "HHO devices" I have designed, built and installed were for industrial process gas applications. Only a half dozen were placed on gasoline/diesel engines. However, this still puts me well ahead of the curve in experience and understanding.

Might want to check this out:

Toyota targets 45% thermal efficiency for engines in next-gen hybrids


Also:

Thermal efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A 100% efficient engine would not need a radiator because it would not get warm. It would have zero friction and no heat would transfer through the cylinder walls or out of the exhaust.

Traditional power plants operate at around 40% efficiency, so the engine in a modern Prius is actually of similar efficiency to electricity produced in most power plants and diesel engines. Combined cycle plants use waste heated (what would end up in a radiator or coming out of the exhaust in a car) in a second stage to produce more electricity, but if we're talking apples to apples, what you have in your Prius is as good as any first-stage combustion engine in the world.

EDIT: That 60% loss is not from inability to effectively combust fuels, but rather, comes from heat soaking through cylinder walls and being lost out of the exhaust. There's very little you can do to get more energy out of the fuel itself, which is what most HHO proponents suggest is happening.

You might consider a project to try to capture exhaust and radiator waste heat. Some on here have suggested steam cycles or using TECs to generate electricity from waste heat. You could then use this electricity to make hydrogen, or better yet, just use it to power the car so you don't have the drag of an inefficient alternator pulling on your engine.

Welcome to Ecomodder.

You can get out of the Unicorn Corral if you test and report in accordance with this discussion: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11445.html. Please. We just want modifications to be properly tested and reported. Bland assertions are not good enough.

I have made numerous posts that outline the plausibility of HHO.
 

You even made note of the fact that the complexity of my posts were the reason topics like this reside in the Corral. And that is fine by me. Why don't you debunk my numerous posts that a small amount of hydrogen and oxygen can affect the combustion profile through various thermochemical pathways? That is a well established discipline of chemistry.

I do not think the OP or Hypermiler pretend the addition HHO will allow us perpetual motion. You and others have put those words into this thread. Bad on you. In a court of law, your arguments would be disallowed.

They and myself are simply saying " a percentage gain may be had under the right circumstances - let us investigate".

If you want to add to the discussion - both pro and con - feel free. But do not drag the thread into the drivel that you suppose the Corral is filled with.

"Be kind to Unicorns". It's a simple concept to let them live or die on their own accord. They are fragile beings. They don't need your butchery.

Thanks for a good post.
 

I am a "proponent" of HHO to the point I know it affects combustion. And trust me, I know the difference between thermal efficiency and combustion efficiency and I appreciate your definition as both terms are misused constantly on this forum.

However, I disagree that little can be done to to get more energy out of the fuel. By your own presentation, you admit roughly 60 % of thermal energy is lost in a good engine. And yet research has shown combustion engines that use the HCCI ( homogenous charge compression ignition ) mechanism can exceed 50% thermal efficiency for various reasons. Large advanced diesels also do the same.

I am simply supporting the thought that a small addition of HHO can affect the combustion profile to push an engine of 30-35% thermal efficiency into the 40-45% range by virtue of more rapid combustion ( similar to the advantages of HCCI ) or by extended lean burn ( similar to large diesels ).

I suggest that we let folks like Hypermiler and the original poster continue the qualitative analysis of "does it work". That can be stretched into the quantitative analysis of "how much". Theoretical understanding can come later.

Wouldn't a greatly increased combustion rate require a redesign of the engine to gain any benefit? That is, design an engine with much higher piston speeds? The valves will still be closed and the heat will be held in the cylinder for a given period either way.

I'm getting a bit out of my depth here, admittedly.

No, your thinking is correct.
 

HCCI engines which ignite all the fuel within a short time frame are markedly different from early attempts. You are correct in assuming the dwell time at or around TDC ( top dead center ) is important and juggling crank stroke and connecting rod length will be needed to maximize advantages gained from contracted ignition/combustion events. However, a smaller gain can be derived from simple elimination of ignition lead time. I think you will agree in the classic discussion of ignition lead time that less lead is more efficient. An engine, under a specific load/rpm will be more thermally efficient if it's ignition lead is smaller to produce the specified power. We had another thread, which I should revive again, where pfgpro put up some very good graphics of pressure curves for combustion. It made it clear that the pressure rise before TDC is all negative work and lost energy. If you can contract combustion and reduce lead timing, you can gain back that energy. This can be done on any engine with varying levels of success. Pfgpro has shown this with some measured runs on his modified engine and his leaky nitrous "experiment" showed us a hint of what could be gained by adding an accelerant.

I've got a cord of wood and no matches . . .
 

. . . but I can rub the sticks together real fast and in a few minutes I might be able to get the cord of wood to burn. Or I can use the match that I have in my pocket and get the fire going in no time at all.

If you want to use allegorical arguments, I am well and capable of answering in kind.

Oh and by the way, I can produce that 3600 liters per hour - on demand. Right on my truck. It's done on a regular basis.

And yet you have no wish to show your work to anyone unbiased and clearly demonstrate the benefits. One liter of HHO per second. I'd like to see that claim verified. And how much power does that require?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...ileage/4276846

I guess the response I should expect from this link is an attack on my or their credibility, while the attackers credibility claim should be accepted without question.

Sure

regards
mech

Birk, can you kindly flesh out the details of your build?
 

Tell us a bit more about your vehicle, your generator and system integration as well as your testing procedures and results.

Thanks,
Rusty

Couldn't you achieve the same thing by advancing ignition timing?

Popular Mechanics? You quote a pretentios reader rag?
 

I can and will produce results. I already have done my homework. Have you?

Please attack my position on the thermochemical advantages of hydrogen seeding a combustion mixture as well as the oxidation advantage of small amounts of ozone which is a by product of the dirty electrolyte found in most HHO cells and can be a large contributing factor in the so called "effect"?

And I baited your 3600 liters per minute to state the simple fact that all hydrocarbon combustion - when taken to completion - is simply the oxidation of carbon and hydrogen as the last step. This includes the combustion in my 1 liter car or my 6.7 liter diesel. If you don't understand that combustion is a large number of pathways to that simple end, and that the addition of precursors such as ozone and hydrogen "railroads" this complex mess into a simpler more rapid course, then it is clear why you think the way you do.

Oh, I have an acquaintance who builds solid gassifiers that produce fuel gas for stationary power. His units are sold all over the world. Engines large and small, spark ignited or diesel pilot injection, run on the CO and H2 provided by his systems. I do the same thing with liquid fuels. In the milli-seconds before combustion starts, why not prepare the fuel mix so that it does not dally in the production of compounds such as acetylene and hydrazine, but moves through that to quickly form the cloud of CO and H2 which ultimately produces your thermal release and resultant pressure rise?

If any of this makes sense to you, feel free to remark and make conjecture. If not, it would be wiser to refrain from comment.

I think you should realize by now that what I am speaking of has nothing to do with "simple HHO" applications. However, HHO does carry the means to affect the above discussion. All we need to do is find out "how and how much".

That's a good question.
 

To a degree, with modern engines - yes.

Most timing curves are compromises to emissions. However, additional delays to ignition timing results in incomplete combustion and non-ideal pressure curves. Advancing to longer timing often moves you to more efficient pressure curves at the cost of higher NOx emissions, but soon thereafter you get knock or detonation.

There are other ways to cause more rapid combustion. Several people are experimenting with the ideas of greater turbulence, pressure and higher intake/fuel temperatures as well as the idea of seeding ( HHO, ozone, etc ). This is a complex discussion that has ongoing research in a myriad number of disciplines.

Baited LMAO, you made a ludicrous claim you could not support with facts. Now that sounds familiar when the HHO genisues come here to sell their snake oil.

So I guess from your last post you like to come to HHO threads and make claims that have nothing to do with on board generation of HHO or reality based on real evidence. Maybe you are the one who should refrain from responding as you "advised" me to do before your tangental diversion of the topic.

"Run your car on water", BUT don't expect it to really run on water.

If you claim it support it, if you can't your posts are just thread pollution.

Don't fog up the discussion with additional claims, without facts to support them about fuel generation through other means.

Start your own thread, this one is close to being locked like the others you have threadjacked.

Try a discussion without your ego or claimed, but unproven, accomplsihments.

Time for the post ignore button. If you are the only one here with a brain, kindly enlighten us lower class beings with your brilliance, SUPPORTED WITH REAL EVIDENCE.

Oh and I have an acquaintence who builds cold fusion reactors in his garage.

I agree with old mechanic, post proof, and quit wasting time arguing.

Old mechanic, you should also test this, skeptics test info would be great!