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-   -   Would you resurface your own cylinder head? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/would-you-resurface-your-own-cylinder-head-37391.html)

Xist 04-01-2019 03:38 PM

Would you resurface your own cylinder head?
 
I finally took apart my engine. I am cleaning it up and taking it to an engine shop today. Hopefully "Reinstallation is reverse of removal" is adequate instruction for me, even though six pages of instructions for removal weren't.

I am somewhat afraid of how much time I spent trying to figure out different details they left out. I could not remove the intake manifold completely and I did not want to force it, fearing that I would break something.

Then someone in a video said to not worry about that, you can slide the head out of the intake manifold.

Nice!

I think that Old School Funk has three videos about resurfacing your own cylinder head. In the first one, he glued sandpaper to a glass table, and moved the head across it for forty-five minutes. In the second he made sanding blocks, and in the third, he made sanding blocks, sprayed both the sanding blocks and cylinder head with WD40, and after a minute or two of sanding, he hosed off the blocks.

He says this method takes five to eight minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK2R2LdkLKs

I am concerned that it would not sand evenly, although I found dozens of comments on-line that this works adequately for them. Some even claim that Subaru mechanics do this instead of sending it to a machine shop.

Have any of you tried this? Would you?

Have any of you used his method to remove the cylinder head without removing the timing belt? If not, would you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nGqtq3YnQ

I thought that it was weird that he fastened the broomstick to the side of the timing belt sprocket. I think that would move more than attaching it to the top, and I am concerned that you need to have the wire tight, but if you stress wire too much, it fails.

Another guy said he had replaced at least thirty Civic head gaskets in the past year and he never had any problems just removing the timing belt and sprocket and simply setting it aside.

As long as you mark it first, you can put everything back properly, right?

Finally, a word from ChrisFix about replacing winter air (in your tires) with summer air!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t09qfrYwok

Frank Lee 04-01-2019 03:45 PM

I've done my own flatty small engine heads.

Others go to the machine shop or local vo tech school.

redpoint5 04-01-2019 04:25 PM

This is among the reasons why EVs will eventually take over mechanically complex ICE vehicles. You've sunk a lot of time into the problem, and there's no guarantee that it will work well or last a long time after you get it back together.

I just spent like 2hrs trying to replace a battery in my Mom's $150 Nexus 6p phone, only to break the digitizer in the process. $80 later and another 2hrs spent, and the stinkin thing still doesn't work. I bought her a nice Pixel XL for $115 on Ebay. I wasted my time and money on something that was old and difficult to repair when I could have just moved on sooner.

If it were me, I'd take it to a shop to machine the head. Achieving smoothness is way to easy to mess up because sanding can cause a cheese grater effect where the areas toward the bottom of the direction of sanding receive more pressure than other areas and wear down quicker.

I have no experience rebuilding engines or fixing gasket leaks, but it seems like one of those things where experience really helps. There's head bolt torques that are super critical, and retorquing, and torquing in the correct order, and using the correct grade of bolt...

Xist 04-01-2019 04:40 PM

I replaced the original battery and daughterboard on my first Galaxy S6. Now it will not turn on. I took it to the only phone repair shop up here and the guy said that I was on my own. I bought another S6 off Back Market for $160, but aside from the battery and charging, it does not work as well. The virtual keyboard disappears frequently, giving more reason to use my computer whenever possible.

I also used to regularly schedule messages, but that option is completely missing from my current phone. I needed to download an app.

I keep getting distracted when I look for for my go\no-go gauges.

redpoint5 04-01-2019 05:02 PM

If the phone doesn't work, why not send it back?

$160 seems a bit much for a phone that debuted in 2015. As I said, I got a Pixel XL in great shape for $115.

I probably won't monkey with replacing batteries anymore considering used phones are cheap, and it's nice to update to newer technology every couple years.

ksa8907 04-01-2019 05:04 PM

Glass table? Not a great idea. Glass is usually flat, yes, but what about when you put a chunk of metal on it?

If I HAD to have the head resurfaced and I didn't want to or couldn't afford a machine shop, I would use a large file followed up by metallic sand paper and go SLOW. The critical thing is making sure you keep it flat.

Is the head warped? If it's still in good shape you shouldn't need to have them resurfaced. Before you go through the trouble, verify if it is warped or not. I would not try to fix a warped head DIY.

Fat Charlie 04-01-2019 05:51 PM

I vote machine shop.

Xist 04-01-2019 08:17 PM

The videos showed glass tables, but there were definitely people saying they put their glass on a sturdy workbench.

I called the machine shop to make sure that I had the right place. They said $50 plus tax and a day or two. I parked in front of the sign saying "Office," not seeing the sign pointing to the far side of the building.

No problem! It is just 1.6 liters! It is just aluminum!

Yeah, I will be parking at the other end next time.

In-person they said $65, then $85, and I left before he raised it again.

The center of the head was off 0.003 inches. I could only fit my straight edge down the center of the block, but I could not fit my 0.0015 shim under the straight edge.

I did not want to remove the rest of the engine, haul that around, and pay to have it machined!

jcp123 04-01-2019 10:38 PM

Sounds too risky for me. <$100 vs a messier problem down the road? I like DIY, but this isn't where I'd skimp.

Xist 04-01-2019 11:05 PM

He also has videos for doing the other parts of the head yourself. I found a video saying to not grind the valve... homes... yourself, if your grinding bit (is that the name?) gets a nick it can mess up everything.

California98Civic 04-02-2019 12:39 AM

I considered this when I pulled the head last summer to replace the head gasket. But I decided against it in the end thinking it represented a greater risk than it was worth. I took it to a good machine shop recommended by a friend who is a retired machinist. I can't remember if I spent 40 or 80 bucks right now. Either way it was damn cheap and the head was thoroughly cleaned to in the process. I do think that he took off more than was necessary, however. That disappointed me a little. But knowing that it was done right and that it'll last a long time as long as I did my part correctly in installing a new gasket and preparing the surfaces makes the small amount of money I spent totally worth it.

me and my metro 04-02-2019 12:44 AM

I would have a machine shop check to see if needed to be resurfaced. If you lost a head gasket you want to know why. The car may have overheated for other reasons resulting in a failed gasket. The head may have warped some if the car got hot. You need to determine the cause of the failure before you start spending money. Just my opinion.

Stubby79 04-02-2019 03:36 AM

Depends on the complexity of having to take it back off again if I messed it up. Meaning a modern car engine: not likely. A less complex, easy to get at engine? sure.

ASV 04-02-2019 05:12 AM

You'll need to find the specs for the part and have an accurate way to
measure. but if you can do that then its not to difficult, I have done it myself
and I am a machinist. galling can be avoided by using good paper and WD40

Piotrsko 04-02-2019 10:56 AM

Head gaskets used to come extra thick, thick, and regular. Thick compresses something like .030, extra thick maybe .060. I dunno been too long since I did this often. Hi-perf gaskets have extra compression metal around the cylinder for better seal. The cylinder area is critical, the rest of the head is an oil /water seal issue.
You can double them up, but that's risky.

I figure shaving the head costs $100 anymore, up side is you can gain some compression increase. If your bolts are reusable, you will need spacer washers that are the same thickness as what you shaved off.

You can home hone the head with silicon carbide 3M sandpaper but that will end costing about $100 for all the materials unless you can score 1/8 heat treated glass for free. Also need to know how to not hone odd features in.

Piotrsko 04-02-2019 11:07 AM

Finally: huge amounts of silicone seal. Seen successful applications of this, but is considered hugely tacky and unprofessional

JSH 04-03-2019 12:26 AM

I would pay the shop $85 to do it right.

I would also make sure the cylinder block is good before I spent the money. (The last engine I worked on that had overheated had a cracked block)

Xist 04-03-2019 02:39 AM

I did not see any cracks.

JSH 04-03-2019 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 595183)
I did not see any cracks.

That is a good sign. Is the top of the block still flat?

What happened to this engine?

Piotrsko 04-03-2019 10:09 AM

Continuing on: just because you dont see cracks..........

I bet the coolant got low and it overheated locally. Typical failure mode

Xist 04-03-2019 01:23 PM

My black Civic started overheating two summers ago, when I was driving all over the Phoenix area. I figured out that the radiator fan was dead, but as far as I could tell, the radiator itself held pressure.

Then I got a full-time job in a cooler part of the state, realized that my radiator was cracked, but did not worry about it, because I never drove that car further than 1.4 miles.

I did not realize that a car could overheat within a few miles, even if it is cool out. I moved in with Mom and my brother with autism, got a new job, and blew the head gasket driving seven miles to training in 70 weather.

Life is harder if you are stupid.

Can you imagine how much trouble I would have saved had I replaced the radiator and fan two years ago?

I could only put my straightedge straight across the block, right in the middle, but I could not fit my .0015-inch shim anywhere underneath.

Shaneajanderson 04-03-2019 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 595239)
My black Civic started overheating two summers ago, when I was driving all over the Phoenix area. I figured out that the radiator fan was dead, but as far as I could tell, the radiator itself held pressure.

Then I got a full-time job in a cooler part of the state, realized that my radiator was cracked, but did not worry about it, because I never drove that car further than 1.4 miles.

I did not realize that a car could overheat within a few miles, even if it is cool out. I moved in with Mom and my brother with autism, got a new job, and blew the head gasket driving seven miles to training in 70 weather.

Life is harder if you are stupid.

Can you imagine how much trouble I would have saved had I replaced the radiator and fan two years ago?

I could only put my straightedge straight across the block, right in the middle, but I could not fit my .0015-inch shim anywhere underneath.

If this car has been overheating regularly for 2+ years, I absolutely do not believe that head is still flat.

If you even need to ask these questions you clearly should trust it to a pro: heads are finicky, and you won't want to tear down again.

Xist 04-03-2019 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 595104)
The center of the head was off 0.003 inches. I could only fit my straight edge down the center of the block, but I could not fit my 0.0015 shim under the straight edge.

The head is warped.

Shaneajanderson 04-03-2019 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 595249)
The head is warped.

Three thou seems pretty small to me, though I admit I'm not an expert on cylinder heads. In the world of machining though, a three thou flatness is pretty flat for most applications, especially involving a gasket that has some yield to it.

Maybe three thou is too much, someone with more knowledge of cylinder heads may chime in.

Piotrsko 04-03-2019 03:32 PM

Hence my comment about head gaskets.

3 thou on 24" is considered to be flat tolerances for a Cincinnati mill. You can probably move the head that much by hand. So you ignore the proper torque sequence and tighten the odd spot first.

Went back to the first post, missed the reason for disassembly. I saw where it was said the gasket was blown, but how was it diagnosed? Compression test or puking fluids or internet?

Shaneajanderson 04-03-2019 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotrsko (Post 595268)
Hence my comment about head gaskets.

3 thou on 24" is considered to be flat tolerances for a Cincinnati mill. You can probably move the head that much by hand. So you ignore the proper torque sequence and tighten the odd spot first.

Went back to the first post, missed the reason for disassembly. I saw where it was said the gasket was blown, but how was it diagnosed? Compression test or puking fluids or internet?

This is what I figured. Three thou is as good a flatness as you'll get on a surface that large with any milling process. A ground surface can usually hold sub one thou but even that would be tough over such a large area.

Xist 04-03-2019 07:29 PM

I tested the compression, noted an oil sheen in the radiator, and rented a combustion gas tester, which changed colors.

redpoint5 04-04-2019 02:13 AM

What if you just reassembled using a good gasket or 2, and followed the advice here to crank down the high points first?

Xist 04-04-2019 02:49 AM

I do not know, but I dropped off my head almost two days ago. It is probable they already started.

Piotrsko 04-04-2019 10:39 AM

If the old gasket looked ok, then there may be cracks. Hope they are doing clean & inspect.

Xist 04-04-2019 10:52 AM

They better! I am paying extra for that! :)

Piotrsko 04-04-2019 11:00 AM

Whew, glad to hear that, I was concerned. Are you building contingency plans?

Xist 04-04-2019 12:55 PM

Honestly, I do not have any idea what I would do if everything works out.

If the head is bad, here is a remanufactured one: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vre-2538/overview/

Car-part.com shows an HX head for $150 in Phoenix, one for $163.35 in Yuma, and one in Tucson for $300. I cannot find any heads through LKQ, but it only seems to show whether they have the inventory at that location. RockAuto has a head for $475.77 shipped.

RockAuto. Yay.

Jegs has one for $620. https://cylinderhead.com has one for $350 (+ shipping). AutoZone has one for $580.

I do not know how much another D16Y5 engine would cost, but it would be far more complicated than just the head, and I am sure that would be the end of this project.

Piotrsko 04-04-2019 02:41 PM

If it works out, put it back together. It's not rocket surgery or brain science, it's automotive mechanics, which at one time everyone knew how to do, back in the medieval times of my youth.

Fat Charlie 04-04-2019 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 595343)
Honestly, I do not have any idea what I would do if everything works out.

I've never seen everything work out for you. if I ever did, I would assume that your account has been hacked and flag it so Darin can lock out an obvious impostor.

redpoint5 04-04-2019 06:06 PM

Ouch, that's harsh, but true.

Hope we turn around that luck Xist!

I admire perseverance over quick success, probably because that's what I'm lacking. Often I'm successful in what I set out to do fairly quickly, so I don't handle setbacks well.

Xist 04-05-2019 10:44 PM

I would have an easier time if I just made fewer mistakes.

I was not able to start this month's schoolwork earlier because I kept taking care of work e-mails after finishing my progress reports. I read six chapters yesterday, watched two hours of lecture, and took my quiz yesterday before seeing my afternoon clients, but I read the textbook, watched the lectures, and missed the quiz today because I did not realize daylight savings already started.

My professor expressed her sympathy, which is worth more than 95 points if you are insane.

Maybe I should have waited another week to work on my head gasket.

Wikipedia says this changed in 2007 and The U.S. Department of Energy determined the nation used 0.03% less energy the first year they extended daylight saving.

U.C. Santa Barbara determined that Indiana used 1% more electricity--less lighting, but more heating and cooling. They chose Indiana because most of the state did not observe daylight saving beforehand: https://www.nber.org/papers/w14429.pdf

Piotrsko 04-11-2019 10:17 AM

A possibly loaded question: have you gotten your head together yet? Unless they are beyond typical flakey, the shop should be done by now.

Ecky 04-11-2019 10:29 AM

Seems like a lot for a cylinder head, considering it's possible to get complete low mile "low desirability" Honda engines for $3-500.

Xist 04-11-2019 11:46 AM

I do not know if you can get Insight engines for that much. I know that you can get boring Civic engines, but the D16y5s that I have found always went for much more.

The machine shop said it would take a day or two, but I was busy talking to the office about getting new clients, and then trying to prepare for three quizzes and a test in four days.

That was Sunday, I called the shop Monday morning, and they said it was ready. They don't inform customers?

The head bolts that I ordered last Wednesday (please allow 2 - 4 business days for shipping) started processing on Monday (please allow 2 - 4 business days for shipping), and allegedly shipped yesterday, but clicking on their link does not give me any shipping information.

I looked it up myself and it has not shipped yet.

Yay.

It looks like it takes at least two weeks to get nuts and bolts from Coconut Point Honda in Florida.

Edit: This is the only HX engine that I can find: https://buyusedengine.com/used_engin...20Transmission

Over $1,000, plus $200 to ship... and it says it is for an automatic transmission. What difference does that make? Does that mean it does not have lean burn?


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