Yeah we all know its a scam

[P-hack]

ahh, sweet relief
http://ecomodder.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist

[UFO]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Hydrogen/oxygen is not a catalyst as the HHO proponents have put forward. It is consumed in the process of course, as a "seeding component". It happens on the thermochemical scale. The thermodynamics of chemistry. And it doesn't break the laws of said thermodynamics to alter the flame front and recover the lost energy of combustion. drrbc has pointed out repeatedly that we are not looking at a closed reaction. We are adding additional air and fuel to continuously produce energy, the bulk of which is wasted. Why the recovery of a percentage or two of this energy is not understood by forum readers is beyond me.

Reduce aerodynamic drag and less energy is needed to move the same speed.

Reduce rolling resistance and glide further on the same energy expenditure.

Reduce pumping losses in an engine and gain up to 15% more useable energy to move the vehicle. We all see this as part of the diesel cycle advantage.

Reduce combustion losses? Reduce heat loss? Improve the pressure gradient across the piston surface? All this can be done with a small seeding of oxygen/hydrogen.

A graduate level understanding of combustion may be needed to fully understand this, but the theory is not beyond those who have at least an undergraduate science background. Thermochemistry, Gibbs free Energy, reaction rates, etc.

That is why I simply seek to map the pressure curve. If that doesn't convince you, then I don't know what will.

I will build and integrate a system to do A-B-A tests. I will then offer to travel to any of the North American Skeptics on this forum and THEY can test the system and make a report here on Ecomodder. Of course all I ask is that you cover my travel expenses.

First things first - a suitable generator will be built. Then electronic controls implemented. Then the tests. Hopefully the instrumentation will include an in-cylinder pressure sensor.

Again, I am not creating energy from thin air. I am using a small amount of energy to recover a portion of the massive energy that is lost in the internal combustion engine. Wrap your head around that and it becomes plausible.

All the losses present in current transportation technologies known, I agree. You have not made any case for how your "seeding" will reduce those losses against the ridiculous inefficiency of electrolysis. I don't even see that you understand the comparative magnitude of energy in versus potential efficiency savings. These engines are governed by cycle principles, and the combustion products have no more energy in them, so any proposed gains have to come from some currently unknown science.

Again, people have been trying to get power out of water for over 100 years, why do you think you can find just the right combination when everything else that have been tried has fallen completely flat?

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by P-hack

ahh, sweet relief
http://ecomodder.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist

C'mon fellas, no risk to anybody but me.

P-hack has bowed out. If you're sure you know thermo that well this should be a no-brainer for ya. Best part of it is, if you're proven right I will have learned something (and I'll publicly acknowledge it here in these pages) and you all can just keep shouting down people with your misunderstanding of thermodynamics! Shoot, I'll even help ya!

[Frank Lee]

I have more important things to do. Look! There is a frozen flagpole which must be licked. See ya later.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I have more important things to do. Look! There is a frozen flagpole which must be licked. See ya later.

Kittycat left the building- vaya con Dios, muchacha!

You stop shouting down people with your thermodynamics arguments that you neither understand nor use correctly, or you take the bet.

Again, all the risk is mine.

[ecoTex]

Originally Posted by drrbc

Frank,

I'd expected a remark like that from you.

What's the matter boy? Ain't got the cajones for an outside expert review?

Then STFU and quit spreading your crap science.

Is there a procedure for having an antagonistic cancer banned?
This is supposed to be fun people.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by ecoTex

Is there a procedure for having an antagonistic cancer banned?
This is supposed to be fun people.

Well, there should be. But it doesn't look like there is.

Just check all over ecomodder and you'll find this same group, and others (most "Master" ecomodders) disparaging and shouting down others with specious, poorly understood thermodynamics arguments.

It's time others hold these guys accountable. I'm just the first, and I hope others aren't afraid to jump in.

Once someone stands up to the bully and bloodies their nose they usually respond in a positive fashion. It's a little harder with a gang, but the principle is the same.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by drrbc

Kittycat left the building- vaya con Dios, muchacha!

You stop shouting down people with your thermodynamics arguments that you neither understand nor use correctly, or you take the bet.

Again, all the risk is mine.

Attitudes aside, the thermodynamic argument is simply not on your side with known chemical reactions and engine conditions. It is incumbent on you to demonstrate how 100 years of engine and fuel designs can be turned on its head simply by adding just the right amount of extra H2. As I said before, I am making the facile argument, but the historic evidence cannot be ignored.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by UFO

Attitudes aside, the thermodynamic argument is simply not on your side with known chemical reactions and engine conditions. It is incumbent on you to demonstrate how 100 years of engine and fuel designs can be turned on its head simply by adding just the right amount of extra H2. As I said before, I am making the facile argument, but the historic evidence cannot be ignored.

And so I have agreed to, with my money and your selection of an appropriate expert- as I have stated above.

Again, my dime. No reason for you or anyone to not take it.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by drrbc

And so I have agreed to, with my money and your selection of an appropriate expert- as I have stated above.

Again, my dime. No reason for you or anyone to not take it.

Don't wait on me, I'm patient, this chit chat has been going on for decades.