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Old 01-05-2014, 12:44 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Sorry, must butt inů

Wickydude,

I gotta jump in with RustyLugNut. Our Kiwi friend makes the same classic mistake all of the other armchair thermodynamicists do with the "energy in must equal energy out" argument. That is, they love to forget the "in a closed system" caveat.

Combusting a mole of pure hydrogen with half a mole of pure oxygen in a bomb calorimeter is a far cry from the 4-stroke internal combustion engine. In the first example we say "assume a closed system". In the second we just laugh. Normally I treat the HOH controversy as click bait and just move on because so few people understand this that it's a waste of my time.

Believe me, I can present massive amounts of empiric evidence and argue that the world is flat. Give me just a day and I will force you into admitting the same publicly.

But it still wouldn't be true, would it?

Always remember that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Wickydude, then are dreamt of in your philosophy".

Or mine.

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Old 01-05-2014, 03:03 AM   #62 (permalink)
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And before retiring for the night, I felt the overwhelming urge to go out and kick the dogs cage and wake those pups up…

Consider hydrogen diffusivity is 4 times greater than CNG (methane) and 6 times greater than propane, and that flame velocity is 6-7 times faster for both as well.

So, as oil pan 4 noted (07-23-2011) …"you account for all the BTUs in the diesel and the BTUs per mile you get from the "gas" you get 3% to 5% more fuel economy that you cant account for."

And from euromodder (07-23-2011) "The good part is you win on total BTU, so the diesel is also used more efficiently.

It's this sort of benefits the HHO-crowd is screaming about, but can't realize as they have to produce their own H2."


This is an example of what I call "So close, but yet so far".

They almost had it. The HHO debate IS NOT about amps and Joe cells. There aren't simple formulae as with electroplating or galvanic corrosion.

It's about the complex physical nature of multiple gases and their chemistry as they move through an internal combustion engine and their effects (on it, each other, and the world surrounding).

It's an OPEN system. Turbulent mixing and combusting of multiple gases- including some novel molecules suspected of being present, but can't be proven- and the heat and work transferred to the planet.

And no "Idealized Carnot Heat Engine" rebuttals- I'll puke.

So if you want to play the game with me, and like it or not- you will play- you should remember:

You can't win and you can't tie.

But it won't matter. Because, in the end, it will all fall apart anyway...

Last edited by drrbc; 01-05-2014 at 03:08 AM..
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:11 AM   #63 (permalink)
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I see unicorns...
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:27 AM   #64 (permalink)
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I see unicorns...
...like this ONE?

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Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post

Last edited by gone-ot; 01-05-2014 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 01-05-2014, 03:25 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I see unicorns...
Oh quit complaining. We all suffer those little lipid soluble "inconveniences" from living through the 1970's. Just sit back and enjoy how purple they smell.

;^)

OK, back to serious. RustyLugNut is giving us some great science here for free, stuff I'd be quite happy to pay for (esp. when you consider what he can't say).

He is demonstrating how the HHO debate has stagnated. I just wanted to come out and say it- call a spade a "spade", so to say- and rip those who use the same old lame and nonsensical rebuttals

All of us tend to think in absolutes because it helps us order our world. But to be a good scientist you can't let yourself think that way.

You should be thrilled with that which defies our understanding. "Wow! This event shouldn't be able to happen- let me work on it!"

So when a phenomena occurs, to fall back on a simple equation that you're not even using correctly is intellectually disingenuous. People do it not to promote investigation and knowledge, but to stroke their own egos. These are the narcissistic dregs in our society that bring us all down.

So what if the HHO generator only added 1-2% to my daily commute? Is that worth investigating and devoting at least some of the combined brainpower of the ecomodders to its solution? What if I get 1-2%, but you get 0%, or even notice a loss? What then?

We already know some mods work well for some and others don't, it depends on many factors. I would at least then expect that in this forum the intellectual honesty to not "poke fun" and disregard/disrespect those who are working on the problem.

And yes, of course it happens- otherwise the thread wouldn't be titled "Yeah we all know its a scam".

Be honest.

My personal suspicion is that there is something to this. I also suspect its usefulness is limited, or we'd all be driving vehicles running Brown's gas. So while I may not be able to set up a generator that gives me a 25% across the board MPG improvement, if I were able to get my MPG from 12 to 17 for only when I was pulling a trailer at a steady highway speed, I'd still be all over it.

And you have been a perfect example for all of us to follow. You've shown an open mind and a willingness to learn. You've asked great questions and seemingly held prejudice at bay when others are unable to. You sir, are a fine and honest man- and you have my respect.

My question is this: Does this need to pass the "Sagan Test"? Most of the extraordinary claims seem to come from the fringe (as with many other claims on debated subjects). But at least the science here is solid, its just not widely understood.

Or should it be grouped with the Pizza Pan People that sometimes get 2-4% and sometimes none?

I mean, really. Pizza Pans? That's just stoopid!
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Old 01-05-2014, 04:11 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Yah, for diesels (like the 5.9 dodge) it seems to be more acceptable that there are hho gains (though it only gets like 285g/kwh normally?!?) But the returns on gas engines seems severely diminished if at all. Given all the variables and lack of scientific rigor displayed by the hho clan as a whole, it is fair to call it a unicorn.

Do something where you can disclose everything and have it independently confirmed and all the details and assumptions exposed to the light of day, then you don't have a unicorn.

Oh, and you are terribly incorrect when you say it is ONLY about the secret "invisible" happenings in the combustion chamber. There are tons of variables involved, not excluding fuel and delivery variances, individual ECU variances and operational parameters as well as the load the HHO system imparts.

It deserves to prove itself not a unicorn, but will take more than a few posts with missing details (for whatever reason). Though I am glad for the information from Rusty, and a careful reader will have some clue what is involved with isolating the variables and making a proper case for HHO on gasoline. Not that plenty of people haven't tried already, but at least make sure your tires are properly inflated before you start on this.
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:14 PM   #67 (permalink)
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...Oh, and you are terribly incorrect when you say it is ONLY about the secret "invisible" happenings in the combustion chamber. There are tons of variables involved, not excluding fuel and delivery variances, individual ECU variances and operational parameters as well as the load the HHO system imparts.

It deserves to prove itself not a unicorn, but will take more than a few posts with missing details (for whatever reason). Though I am glad for the information from Rusty, and a careful reader will have some clue what is involved with isolating the variables and making a proper case for HHO on gasoline. Not that plenty of people haven't tried already, but at least make sure your tires are properly inflated before you start on this.
But that's essentially the opposite of what I did say. And I said nothing about "invisible"!

I did say "novel" in reference to which Rusty alluded to ozone (O3). He didn't even mention O- and orthogonal water. It's hard enough to fully understand the nature of the interactions between the gases we know to be present, and yet we are forced to admit that what we don't know IS present!

And there ARE tons of variables- including all those you mention! Plus its a system that transfers heat and work to the outside over time- the very definition of an open system. Please read my posts again- some of your points are a recapitulation of my own.!

What I am saying is that the majority here are showing up prejudiced, including:

"...Not that plenty of people haven't tried already, but at least make sure your tires are properly inflated before you start on this."

Our duty is to show up with an open mind and be intellectually honest. It's not my job to force someone into it, and if a person can't be then they are a detriment to all and have no place with those that come here wanting to learn.

And that Rusty can't say everything speaks volumes. I can personally attest to companies making proteins in trash cans that they sell for hundreds of millions of dollars, but all anyone will say is "yeah, we use trash cans." Does that mean insulin is a foolhardy venture?

Like hydrogen electrolysis, I know these people genetically manipulate e. coli. And yes, they use trash cans. They are also likely in a controlled climate and have some kind of mixer. IT IS NOT A NEW OR UNKNOWN SCIENCE!!!

But bet there are things they don't ever want to share. I'm sure they do something to the can to increase yield, but we'll never find out. Just like Rusty's company.

My statement is "The science is there. We need to figure out how to use it" (kind of like "How to make the pizza pan work every time"). My argument is that we can't move forward because of our egos, prejudice, and ignorance.

BTW, regularly check and maintain at 45psi X 4. Not sure if it really helps, so it must be voodoo.

Last edited by drrbc; 01-05-2014 at 05:35 PM..
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:42 PM   #68 (permalink)
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I mean, really. Pizza Pans? That's just stoopid!
You get thanks for giggles
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:07 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
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...
My statement is "The science is there. We need to figure out how to use it" (kind of like "How to make the pizza pan work every time"). My argument is that we can't move forward because of our egos, prejudice, and ignorance....
Dude, shut up and get busy then, I have a good idea what is going on with HHO and am not willing to invest my time in it, you blather about everything including genetics and have been on a tirade for the last 5 posts. "We" can mean just you, so what are you waiting for, start investing YOUR time and share YOUR results and details and do a proper job of it (because hiding them doesn't help the unicorn status and is CERTAINLY not proof of anything).

BLA BLA BLA!!!
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:28 AM   #70 (permalink)
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...BLA BLA BLA!!!
C'est La Guerre

(sigh)

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