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oil pan 4 07-22-2011 07:37 PM

Yeah we all know its a scam
 
Is there any good proof out there that HHO systems are big on hype and none on positive results?
Has any one out there been able to burry this dead horse once and for all?

cleanspeed1 07-22-2011 08:25 PM

Nope. Usually gets sent to the Unicorn Corral for feeding and a brushing.

With diesel, it's already been proven that a mild propane or cng system gets the mileage way up. The MSD/Superchips electronic unit got an unladen Cummins Dodge to 44 mpg.

During the Diesel Power Shootout, one guy got his Duramax to near ( or was it over ) 50 mpg with a homemade CNG system. The guy that won ( Dmitri Milliard ) pulsed his nitrous system to 36 mpg ( 1200hp twin turbo Dmax ).

Go over to the Diesel Power site and do a search, it's in there.

gone-ot 07-22-2011 08:42 PM

...you can do the same/similar "improvement" with 'shots' of NOX too, because all you're doing is introducing a different fuel into the combustion process, one that either "boosts" power (NOX) or economy (CNG, propane, etc.).

...however, the REAL effect is simply that you're adding more fuel, albeit a different fuel, into the engine.

...add both fuels together, and your net "gain" is seldom above zero.

cleanspeed1 07-22-2011 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 251626)
...you can do the same/similar "improvement" with 'shots' of NOX too, because I all you're doing is introducing a different fuel into the combustion process, one that either "boosts" power (NOX) or economy (CNG, propane, etc.).

...however, the REAL effect is simply that you're adding more fuel, albeit a different fuel, into the engine.

...add both fuels together, and your net "gain" is seldom above zero.

I'd love to see what a 150hp shot would do to that 383 you have OTM!:p

dcb 07-22-2011 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanspeed1 (Post 251623)
Nope. Usually gets sent to the Unicorn Corral for feeding and a brushing...

I first read this as bruising :)

cleanspeed1 07-22-2011 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb (Post 251646)
I first read this as bruising :)

I am trying to stay nice.............

Bring this stuff up and battle axes and cattleprods pop out.:eek:

Sauteed Unicorn over a bed of leafy greens and a horn garnish anyone?:D

oil pan 4 07-23-2011 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanspeed1 (Post 251623)
Nope. Usually gets sent to the Unicorn Corral for feeding and a brushing.

With diesel, it's already been proven that a mild propane or cng system gets the mileage way up. The MSD/Superchips electronic unit got an unladen Cummins Dodge to 44 mpg.

During the Diesel Power Shootout, one guy got his Duramax to near ( or was it over ) 50 mpg with a homemade CNG system. The guy that won ( Dmitri Milliard ) pulsed his nitrous system to 36 mpg ( 1200hp twin turbo Dmax ).

Go over to the Diesel Power site and do a search, it's in there.

Yep I hear that. I expermented with propane injection back in 2007. I was able to get over 30mpg (diesel only) easy with propane injection.
I did lots of reading on this. When running propane or CNG it seems like when you account for all the BTUs in the diesel and the BTUs per mile you get from the "gas" you get 3% to 5% more fuel economy that you cant account for.
Since the diesel is a heat engine BTUs per mile seems to be the only natural way to measure effectiveness when you have more than one fuel induction system on any on road heat engine.

deathtrain 07-23-2011 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 251626)
...you can do the same/similar "improvement" with 'shots' of NOX too, because I all you're doing is introducing a different fuel into the combustion process, one that either "boosts" power (NOX) or economy (CNG, propane, etc.).

...however, the REAL effect is simply that you're adding more fuel, albeit a different fuel, into the engine.

...add both fuels together, and your net "gain" is seldom above zero.

NOX, propane, CNG are for p#$$%. real men use ether:cool:

euromodder 07-23-2011 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 251626)
...add both fuels together, and your net "gain" is seldom above zero.

Actually, adding LPG or CNG to diesel, there is a considerable gain - more with CNG than with LPG.
It gives a reduction in (combined) CO2 output; emissions are lower because the diesel burns better with the gas; and a financial profit as either gas is less expensive here than diesel.

dcb 07-23-2011 05:45 PM

can you provide supporting links pls?

oil pan 4 07-23-2011 06:30 PM

New CNG tank setup in truck - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums
http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm

I thought every one that was a diesel modder knew of propane/natural gas fumigation.

cleanspeed1 07-23-2011 07:42 PM

Of course we know about the "drugs"!:p

trooper Tdiesel 07-23-2011 08:01 PM

mmmm horse tacos :thumbup:

gone-ot 07-23-2011 09:05 PM

...when ALL the energy contents per volume are accounted for (assuming constant volume, of course) it comes down to effective proportions of BTU content of all the fuels. Look up Gasoline Gallon Equivalent on GOOGLE.

...I've always associated ether with "starter fluid" for cold diesel earthmoving equipment, but, yeah, it'll "burn" too.

...NOX supplies additional oxygen, which helps combustion and HP output, but not MPG!

euromodder 07-24-2011 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 251841)
...when ALL the energy contents per volume are accounted for (assuming constant volume, of course) it comes down to effective proportions of BTU content of all the fuels.

The good part is you win on total BTU, so the diesel is also used more efficiently.

It's this sort of benefits the HHO-crowd is screaming about, but can't realize as they have to produce their own H2.


Of course, going CNG all the way is better than diesel, but adding it to diesel is apparently more easily accepted in the transport world. The bi-fuel trucks will still run on diesel alone.

cleanspeed1 07-24-2011 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by euromodder (Post 251876)
The good part is you win on total BTU, so the diesel is also used more efficiently.

It's this sort of benefits the HHO-crowd is screaming about, but can't realize as they have to produce their own H2.


Of course, going CNG all the way is better than diesel, but adding it to diesel is apparently more easily accepted in the transport world. The bi-fuel trucks will still run on diesel alone.

If we could get the same mpg or better, and the infrastructure was in place, we would use CNG. One less major overhaul to have. Heck, we could probably get 3 million or more miles out of an engine, save incredible amounts of money on oil changes, pollute way less, which means we won't get sick as much, not to mention the lower cost and domestic reserves which require no overseas supply. We have so much natural gas it's ridiculous.

OOPS, shoot, that's why we don't have straight CNG trucks now.

gone-ot 07-24-2011 05:54 AM

...maybe the French should come up with a "Champagne" fuel, ie: "Bubbly-Gasohol" that has CNG 'bubbles' pumped into it?

...it could be labelled Super-Magnum (93), Magnum (91), Bubbly (89), and Spritz (87).

dcb 07-24-2011 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by euromodder (Post 251876)
The good part is you win on total BTU, so the diesel is also used more efficiently.

Can you provide supporting links pls. The ones oil pan posted seem to be broken (in that they contain erroneous/conflicting information)

slowmover 07-24-2011 12:38 PM

We have so much natural gas it's ridiculous.

No, we don't. What's usable and what isn't are in contention, and subject to misinterpretation. There's NG that we'll not ever be able to afford as the EROI is so out of whack with reality.

Propane is the better addition to a diesel for several reasons (with the way things are). One, it can be found all over the US. Second, it's a cheaper conversion. Third, it can be used for quite a few appliances for heating and cooking that a truck provides a portable fuel source for (and NG is not easily usable in the same way).

Propane -- again, in a truck -- may provide some additional range for the more valuable store of diesel, and, IMO, it's more important to think of the work value of goods transportation for ones family. A margin enhancer.

oil pan 4 07-24-2011 02:31 PM

CNG is cheaper to use but the start up cost is high and its difficult to store a lot of CNG on a car or truck.
I wouldn't mind running propane again but I think my compression ratio with turbo is too high, if I did use propane I would only be able to use it in say the 2-6 psi of boost range.
I have considered running water methanol at lower boost.

I think I would be better off running water methanol since it would enhance the temperature differential between both the hot and cold reservoirs. The evaporation of the water methanol makes part of the cold reservoir cooler, then when the diesel is injected and lights off the methanol, both burn off and help make the hot side hotter.

cleanspeed1 07-24-2011 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 251946)
CNG is cheaper to use but the start up cost is high and its difficult to store a lot of CNG on a car or truck.
I wouldn't mind running propane again but I think my compression ratio with turbo is too high, if I did use propane I would only be able to use it in say the 2-6 psi of boost range.
I have considered running water methanol at lower boost.

I think I would be better off running water methanol since it would enhance the temperature differential between both the hot and cold reservoirs. The evaporation of the water methanol makes part of the cold reservoir cooler, then when the diesel is injected and lights off the methanol, both burn off and help make the hot side hotter.

Actually, your compression ratio is fine with boost. Go over to Heath Diesel's site and see what they are doing. Try 30 psi boost on top of 22.5 to 1 compression, water-meth injection, twin turbos, NO INTERCOOLER. All on a 6.2/6.5 based engine.

The race truck gets 30 mpg on the highway. Does over 160 mph. Stock cam, heads, intake manifold, etc. Good stuff.

oil pan 4 07-24-2011 06:22 PM

I just buy products from heath, never read his stuff.
Looks like I am about to start.
I have herd heath likes to fill there high power blocks with block filler up to the bottom of the water pump inlet holes. I thought about adding some block filler (since I did build the engine up from a bare block in my living room) but didn't want to add another 30-50lb of weight to the engine. I would rather have 30-50lb more load capacity or get up a mountian that much sooner.
I have herd the 6.5T doesn't do well on water methanol. Only thing I can think of is there timing could be too far advanced on a stock engine. Heaths 2bar blown diesel could be running less timing than a normal engine.

cleanspeed1 07-24-2011 06:29 PM

True on the block fill, and the engines don't run hot at all. The pump that he uses is an off the shelf Stanadyne DS4, and they use their software upgrade with a higher rpm limit, nothing that a customer can't purchase themselves.

The engine can handle water/meth just fine.

There's an article in Diesel Power about the LSR truck that Heath built.

Like I said, good stuff.:thumbup:

oil pan 4 07-25-2011 01:44 PM

I looked up the diesel power article on heath, they said he was running pure water, to the tune of 1 gallon of water for every half gallon of fuel burned.

I will be using the 6.5 turbo block with 6.2L heads and fuel system. I wont have any of that PMD nonsence.
Also I have no problem sticking well below the 4,400rpm limit mechanicly built into my DB2 injector pump.

some_other_dave 07-25-2011 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathtrain (Post 251716)
real men use ether:cool:

At least, that's what Hunter S. Thompson told us in "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas". ;)

-soD

gone-ot 07-26-2011 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathtrain (Post 251716)
real men use ether:cool:

...those here with 'warped' senses of humor (like me) will appreciate the LOLs I emitted when I mistakenly read those words as: "...real men use either.." :o

rmay635703 08-01-2011 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 251809)
New CNG tank setup in truck - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums
http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm

I thought every one that was a diesel modder knew of propane/natural gas fumigation.

It is very unfortunate that I cannot buy a decent adsorbed NG tank here in the US, they use them on mopeds in foreign countries but won't sell them here except for low volume torch applications.

An adsorbed tank would eliminate the need for a $3k pump every year and eliminate the high cost of NG cars.

oil pan 4 08-01-2011 07:12 PM

Absorbed gas? like the way you dissolve Acetylene into acetone for storage and transport?

rmay635703 08-01-2011 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 253546)
Absorbed gas? like the way you dissolve Acetylene into acetone for storage and transport?

Not exactly, NG will "pressurize" at low pressures in the presence of large amounts of activated charcoal.

Adsorbed Natural Gas Technology

G-TEC Adsorbed Natural Gas Cylinders

oil pan 4 08-01-2011 07:25 PM

Sounds simple enough, gas cylinder + active charchol + mild compressor.
Any idea what the start up on this is?
With the "american way" its $100s of dollars for the tanks and the high pressure boost compressors run about $3,600 (last time I looked).

oldbeaver 12-18-2013 05:54 PM

I tested HHO generator with my diesel.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 251626)
...you can do the same/similar "improvement" with 'shots' of NOX too, because I all you're doing is introducing a different fuel into the combustion process, one that either "boosts" power (NOX) or economy (CNG, propane, etc.).

...however, the REAL effect is simply that you're adding more fuel, albeit a different fuel, into the engine.

...add both fuels together, and your net "gain" is seldom above zero.

My experience was this:

Even when I add more fuel to the engine (the HHO), as my engine is not electronicaly controled, when I switched ON the HHO generator the engine diminishes rpm in the same way as with Air Conditioner. The HHO generator was my second versión build, improved, with 11 cells, very efficient, but even though, for me it was clear that the generator was sucking more energy from the engine than the energy it was providing burning the HOH gas.

If the gas had been giving additional energy, the engine would have increased its rpm, as if I was accelerating a Little more, i.e. injecting more fuel.

Besides, the HHO generator had to be fed with wáter.

I worked a lot in the system, but reality showed me it was a fiasco.
Not any theoretical consideration or prejudice. Just doing.

Oldbeaver

Note: What if we had to generate our gasoline or diesel onboard? My impression is it probably would had a negative energy balance too.

RustyLugNut 12-20-2013 03:51 PM

Can you give us a few more details?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oldbeaver (Post 403484)
My experience was this:

Even when I add more fuel to the engine (the HHO), as my engine is not electronicaly controled, when I switched ON the HHO generator the engine diminishes rpm in the same way as with Air Conditioner. The HHO generator was my second versión build, improved, with 11 cells, very efficient, but even though, for me it was clear that the generator was sucking more energy from the engine than the energy it was providing burning the HOH gas.

If the gas had been giving additional energy, the engine would have increased its rpm, as if I was accelerating a Little more, i.e. injecting more fuel.

Besides, the HHO generator had to be fed with wáter.

I worked a lot in the system, but reality showed me it was a fiasco.
Not any theoretical consideration or prejudice. Just doing.

Oldbeaver

Note: What if we had to generate our gasoline or diesel onboard? My impression is it probably would had a negative energy balance too.

Things such as the engine tested as well as the current draw of the HHO generator as well as it's gas output.

Your test procedure would also be helpful.

oldbeaver 12-20-2013 04:36 PM

Diesel engine tested with an HHO generator
 
2 Attachment(s)
Ok, here are some more details:

1) The engine tested was a Nissan RD28, 3000cc, 6 cil in line, naturally aspirated, 18 valves. Made in Japan in 1996. This was about 6 years ago. The engine is still working in very good condition, was perfect then. You can see it here: https://sites.google.com/site/rd28engineswap/

2) From what I recall, the current draw from the car was about 20 A, but variated up as the wáter warmed up, reaching 25 A aproximately.

3) Gas production was so high that pushed wáter down, diminishing the production surface covered with wáter. To solve this and use all surface in production, I added a small 12V electric pump which blew the gas to the bubler. This solved the problem.

I am attaching a couple of pictures of my HHO generator.

It is made of very heavy and non corrosive Steel, which is very hard to make holes on it. I broke many perforing elements to make the holes. I couldn't cut Steel, so make them cut it with special machinery.

Even so, as I said in previous email, car didn´t benefit from the gas, which I injected at the air income of the engine, after the air filter.

Oldbeaver

oil pan 4 12-22-2013 02:41 PM

If you can build that HHO generator then you should really try building something proven to work like an air dam or any one of the other 70 or so things proven to work.

For some reason people tend to gravitate toward mods that don't work like gas tank pills, hho or some over elaborate combustion process modification that is so complicated no one can explain how it works.

gone-ot 12-22-2013 04:32 PM

Uh, there's a BIG difference between an "...exercise in frugality..." and an "...exercise in futility...". And, the wise observer easily discerns their difference for themselves.

oldbeaver 12-22-2013 05:46 PM

Air Dam and proven mods instead of HHO
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 403918)
If you can build that HHO generator then you should really try building something proven to work like an air dam or any one of the other 70 or so things proven to work.

For some reason people tend to gravitate toward mods that don't work like gas tank pills, hho or some over elaborate combustion process modification that is so complicated no one can explain how it works.

Oil Pan,

Yeah, sure. I like to experiment. I also built an air front cover, but for my Skoda Octavia. Performance improve difficult to measure, anyway. Is that what you mean as "Air Dam"?

What are your favorites among the 70 that do work? I like the ones that don´t change the original look, and produce the most bang for the buck.
Do you mean the 70 mods listed in this site?

Oldbeaver

oil pan 4 12-22-2013 07:15 PM

A front air cover sound like a grill block.
The air dam keeps air from getting hung up on the under side of the vehicle.
An air dam and grill blocks can change the vehicle appearance as much or as little as you want, only thing that limits the visual impact are your imagination, time and budget.

See this:
Car MPG Efficiency Modifications Main - EcoModder
Some mods are vehicle profile specific so they only apply to pickup, car or SUV bodies.
Others are engine specific there are big differences between how the same mod can effect diesel versus gas engines.

RustyLugNut 12-24-2013 03:19 PM

Just because . . .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oil pan 4 (Post 403918)
If you can build that HHO generator then you should really try building something proven to work like an air dam or any one of the other 70 or so things proven to work.

For some reason people tend to gravitate toward mods that don't work like gas tank pills, hho or some over elaborate combustion process modification that is so complicated no one can explain how it works.

. . . the internet hacks can't get it to work, doesn't mean it doesn't. Add to that the grossly inflated claims the scammers attribute to the device and all of a sudden, it's stuck in the unicorn corral.

But, the science for HHO is there, though not in the simpleton assessments of the typical internet discussion.

And the gains to the average person are not in line with the costs involved. It's probably better to zip tie pie tins on your wheels.

RustyLugNut 12-24-2013 03:30 PM

The application of HHO is far more complex than most realize.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oldbeaver (Post 403712)


Even so, as I said in previous email, car didn´t benefit from the gas, which I injected at the air income of the engine, after the air filter.

Oldbeaver

Your quality of build is excellent, but like most who attempt HHO, you have not looked at integrating what the gas does to the combustion profile with the engine application you have.

Without a feedback loop and variable gas output from your generator, the application becomes largely hit and miss.

oil pan 4 01-01-2014 12:56 AM

I am fairly certain no one has gotten it to work.
Why would I waste time building an HHO machine, that is only proven to deliver no results and inconsistent and inconclusive results at best, then always have to tinker with it, adding water or doing what ever you do to make them go.
Then if you do get it to work the oil company has you killed.
Why would I bother with all of that mess when I can build an air dam once, in a day, for about $20, using low value scraps for most of it, never have to mess with it unless the lawn edging gets torn off and gain almost a full MPG?

Last week I was in Maine, the high temperature most days was well below freezing.
In that situation the air dam is not effected.
How does the water filled HHO machine do?


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