Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com - View Single Post

Christ · 10-14-2009, 07:12 PM

This is the first of a series of emails between myself and a salesman of the HHO (hydroxy, as he calls it) systems commonly available.

Me, replying to Ad on Craigslist:

Can you show me some testing that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that this generator will work to get me better fuel economy than I'm already getting, without having to buy some other device to falsify sensor signals, etc...

Reply from Representative:

Hi,

If you are looking for a miracle this is not it. If you are looking for some mileage gains and a better cleaner performing engine, then the generators I am selling for a very reasonable price are definitely worth every penny for the benefits you get from them.
I supply O2 extenders with each kit that help adjust the computer to let the hydroxy give mileage gains, and for under $25.00 you can buy a map enhancer to adjust your fuel supplied by the ecm.
As hydroxy is read as unburned oxygen.
And yes with a few simple tweaks your engine will benefit tremendously from the introduction of hydroxy.
The fuel will burn more complete, your engine will not build up carbon deposits, you will not have all that unburned fuel getting into the crankcase causing premature engine wear, your oil stays cleaner over 3 times as long, the hydroxy will clean existing carbon buildup, your engine will have more power, run smoother, and be cleaner for the environment.
I have seen all different mileage reports from 1 mpg gain to over 10 mpg gain.
The best I seen was on a 2005 Mercury Sable with the 3.0 V6 I installed one generator and installed (2) pre-cat extenders, it took the mileage from 26 MPG to 37 MPG. That was 1-1/2 years ago and over 45,000 miles ago. the vehicles still runs like a top and the owner is very pleased with the way his vehicle responds to hydroxy.
And by the way you cannot make any of these adjustments to your ecm without the generator as you would be sure to burn your valves.
I have thousands of hours researching and testing plate configurations and have come up with a generator that runs cool and does not sludge up like others that have not done the research.
These kits come with 10 gauge wiring, a 40 amp. relay, 30 amp auto reset breaker, 35 amp. toggle switch, 30 amp. ampmeter, all your wiring connectors, flashback arrestor, bubbler, hosing, intake plenum nutted elbow. complete installation instructions, and these are ran independent to the rest of your existing wiring harnesses so there is no worry of over heating existing wiring or blowing fuses.
I can only tell you that I drive a 2000 Buick century 110 miles a day 5 days a week and I am seeing 3 to 4 MPG gains I also have a 1989 Southwind 27' RV with a 454 V8 that is getting an additional 1-1/2 MPG gain.
I have installed these on numerous vehicles and have only gotten positive feedback. So I would say it's more than a myth.

Thanks for the inquiry,
Bill & Diana
Hydro Extra LLC

My answer to the above, re-posing the original question:

Thanks for the generic response. Unfortunately, it didn't answer my question. I'm looking for a study or some scientific data that proves the NHTSA, EPA, and other organizations incorrect. Obviously, you haven't provided this in your (generic) response.

Respondent's reply:

Hello again,

I wish I had a way to achieve a dyno test to prove the gains I am getting, as for the National Highway Traffic Safety Dept. I doubt there's a single legitimate person that can speak on behalf of Hydrogen on Demand Systems, as they are fed info. from sources like dateline that do not know enough to add electrolyte to the water to make it conductive for the electrolysis process to happen.
If anyone watching what they were doing knew what they were looking at, surely would have picked up on this instantly.
And as for the EPA they have nothing to gain by supporting hydrogen on demand as it cuts into tax dollars.
This technology is definitely for the people that are not afraid to experiment some. and not for those who will not even change there own oil.
Should you really be interested in the truth behind the many benefits from hydroxy you ought to visit HHOINFO - The International Open Source HHO / HOD Builders Network. This will help enlighten your supposed interest in this technology. Which is not new nor magical.
If I had thousands of dollars to spend foolishly to prove something that any back yard mechanic has figured out, then I would not be working for a living.
Our government, Opec, and the auto Industries will always stand in the way when it comes to giving back tax dollars. Maybe not our Government as I believe they are to stupid to pull off anything.

Sorry I was not able to boost your ego,
Bill

Note the traditional "they're followers" attitude, and the attempt at shedding light on the "truth" noted above. Also note the feeble attack on myself.

My reply, still making an attempt to be professional, and in good form:

No sir, I'm not looking for an Ego Boost, by any means. I'm looking for proof that what you're claiming works. You can't even provide scientific evidence that it will work, by the sound of it. You're going based on "what everyone knows"... if everyone knew it, common sense would tell you that everyone would have it.

At this point, based on your robotic responses, (which are generic, at best. I've gotten the same line of BS from everyone I've contacted about this, almost word for word...) you don't even understand the mathematics behind the system you're selling, which is built from stuff available at Home Depot for less than $50. At best, you're blindly following a cultist mentality, which believes that something can work, "just because". It doesn't work that way, my friend.

Since water isn't a source of energy, it requires energy to be put into it. Assuming that you're running all conversions with 100% efficiency, which is physically impossible, the amount of energy needed to be put in will equal the amount of BTU content energy that the resultant gas has.

Unless you can explain to me what part of physics I've missed here, I'm going to rest assured that you're yet another fraud, scamming for people's money because you can't get a reasonably paying job or perform a real needed service for your fellow man.

Ok, so that wasn't really in the best form, but this was getting irritating.

Another note from myself to the Representative, reposing the questions a third time, and adding more information to the discussion:

By the way, you wouldn't need to spend thousands of dollars, and if you were selling as many of these as you should be, this "miracle technology", and saving as much fuel as you say you are, you should have the money to do a dyno test in savings alone.

I don't believe for a second that you can prove any gains, and I'm rather concerned about whether or not you even know how to prove your claims.

The NHTSA also does not "go by what others say" as you claim. If you knew anything about the highway administration, the first thing you'd know is that the top 20% of the administration is a bunch of scholars and engineers, all of which, I'm sure, are much higher educated than you or even myself. They conduct studies to prove or disprove what others, much like yourself, claim. They certainly do not "just take your word for it", as you so eloquently put it.

The Respondent's reply to both letters:

Hello again Christ,

It seems to me that you really do not care about the benefits that are achieved from the introduction of hydroxy, nor will you ever believe in it.
Believe me! before I experimented with it, I had my doubts as well. And I also encountered numerous bumps and I never just took what others had to say about it.
I went about it the honest way. Sweat and tears. With thousands of hours of research and actual road test running with the system on and with it off to determine if there was actual benefits from running hydroxy.
I work full time at a job that maybe 1 in 10,000 people could pull off in custom manufacturing & design for companies all over the world that look to me to resolve there design problems.
And they keep coming back to me. Just as my customers have been very pleased with the systems that I have sold to them. This is my hobby as well as my business, and when I retire I will have this hobby and business to keep me occupied.
You can doubt that this is viable and I am sure you always will. As for me and the many customers that I have and have been achieving positive results, we could care less what your thoughts are.
I drive 54 miles to work one way, so I get plenty of road time to rule out that this "technology is imaginative".
People that have only done the math could never ever gain from what hands on experience can gain them. This is certain in any field of study or work.
People that only do the math when hydroxy is in the equation forget about the fact that when you increase the burn rate of any fuel it burns more completely. So your engine runs cleaner, smoother, and with more power. This is a fact and until you actually give it an honest try you will always be lacking the reality of it.
I would like to see you go to home depot and put together a kit that even remotely resembles what I'm selling, as it is obvious you paid close attention to what you were seeing and in addition challenging.
You my friend may be more educated than I as for gaining some type of scholarship but you will always be stupid when it comes to reality.
I am not a scam artist or representing something that does not work or that is poorly designed, But as for your behavior towards people and there products that they have tested in there vehicles, and have seen the same results I have, should not be bashed by every book worm that thinks they know something they do not.
If people like you would just try it for themselves and I meen honestly give it a chance and put there efforts into what all the benefits are from introduction of hydroxy this world would be a far better place to exist in, and cleaner.
You need to go back to your research and prove that it does not work. And this can only be achieved by getting your hands dirty.
I never set out to start conflict but I am not going to lay down when someone is calling me a cheat and a liar.
I do know that there are a tremendous number of people out there misrepresenting this technology. And hyping it up only to make sales.
I stand behind every generator I sell and will gladly reimburse the customer 100% if not satisfied.
If you are so concerned with what I am doing. Why don't you take another look at what I am selling and be honest as to what you see before you rush to judge.

Bill

This is where the Representative makes note of testing that was performed, which may or may not be scientific, but completely ignores requests to provide itemized testing or data.

My reply to the above:

Bill -

I'm enjoying this moderate "back and forth", if you will, but I must point out that once again, you've made assumptions based on information you do not, and can not possibly have about me.

I have said nothing in direct offense to you, or at least, if you took it that way, I did not mean it to be in direct offense. Rather, I'm looking for evidence that what you claim is reality. That's all I ask.

You say that you've tested for "thousands of miles" on your vehicles. Where are your detailed fuel logs? What information do you have to prove that what you claim is not just a spotty misrepresentation of fact? So far, in a series of emails, you've shown me nothing to prove that you're anything more than a Master Debater.

To this end, I don't see any point in continuing to converse, unless you can provide something concrete, not just verbal claims and representations of what you feel is accurate.

How exactly am I supposed to believe in the benefits of your system when you yourself haven't provided anything more than anecdotal evidence of it's benefits? Are you in the habit of believing in something based on the claims of others? I suppose that someone could tell you that if you try hard enough, you can fly as you are currently equipped? Of course you don't believe that... and what evidence has been provided? None! There is no real reason that you have given for me or anyone else to consider this anything more than junk science.

I've asked you for honest results from an honest test, and you offend me. I ask again, with a slightly more pervasive tone, and you again, offend me. I'm happy for you and your career, I really am, but if this is the way you deal with your potential customers and clients, you, my friend, have a lot to learn. Or maybe you don't. By your own admission, you've got more intelligence than Scholars, right? I'm not even close to a Scholar, and I never said I was even so much as smarter than yourself, though I'm sure you inferred that from my last email.

Beside the fact that I find this mildly amusing, I'm going to cut it down to this last request:

Please, if you can, provide me with any kind of factual representation or data that shows that the systems that you install are sufficient to prove your claims. If you're really as smart as you think you are, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something. If you're really the entrepreneur you think you are, you'll want to come up with something.

All due respect,
Christ.

After 18 hours, still no reply, so I posed another query in hopes of getting some kind of response. I'd like to have a real conversation with the person, but I always get the same line from everyone I contact about the "technology" they are working with. Unfortunately, the only ones really putting down the technology are those who apparently are also trying to profit from it, by their attitudes toward potential customers, as displayed above. My last reply:

Also, another request.

Can you give me some insight as to the payback time for your system? In other words, how long will it be form the time that it's installed and tuned properly, assuming that I have you tune/install it, and given a nominally average gain, which is experienced by the majority of your users (best case scenario, in other words) how long would it take for the fuel savings to pay back the cost associated with installing your system?

As a quick figure, I spend about $40 a week on fuel. If your system gives me 3 more MPG, or 10% better fuel economy, after being installed and tuned properly, it would save me about $4 a week. At $4 a week, and your nominal price tag of $189 (not counting installation), it would take just under a year (41-42 weeks) to pay itself off. Well, frankly, that's not all that bad. Now, lets count how much you add on to the cost in installation and extra parts requirements!

I'm just going to give an assumed figure of $500 after installation, tuning, and extra pieces necessary, without knowing fully what your system requires for proper installation/tune.

That makes it $500/4, or 125 weeks. That's right, now we're up to nearly 2.5 years. Add to that the cost of maintenance of the system, added electrolyte, and distilled water (which can't be gotten from a tap, and thus, is an additional cost), what does it really come to? We're probably well over 3 years to payoff at this point.

So, can you correct my numbers, or does it just get worse from here?

Please note that any figure listed in this email other than the $189 purchase price is an assumption based on my knowledge of vehicle repair and aftermarket installation/tuning. The numbers don't necessarily apply to this specific instance, but show the point nicely, I think.

Update @ 21.15 - The representative has lowered his tone, as anticipated. He's sent me another note, still dodging most of the original questions with excuses. He does, however, shine light on the price for installation and tuning (ever the salesman, right?) makes light of my calculation of payback time, makes note (again) of several of the perceived benefits of the "hydroxy" system, and makes a reference to "being better for the environment".

Hi Christ,

First off I never intended to offend you and I am sorry if I came across that way. I just get tired of people saying that there is no way that these generators couldn't possibly benefit the engine as I and most everybody that has experimented with them has. True if you were only using a $4.00 per week savings based on a $40.00 purchase a 10% savings weekly x 52 weeks would only appear to be a $208.00 dollar payback annually.
What your not taking into account is that your oil does not break down as rapidly from the unburned gas getting into the crankcase lowering the viscosity. So say you only have to change your oil every 4th or 5th month which if you were using synthetic oil this is not unheard of. Although not everybody uses synthetic oils you would save an additional $45.00 to $70.00 a year, although I still recommend changing the filter every 5,000 miles.
The fact that the engine is running much cleaner you can expect a much longer engine life.
Which if you were to calculate financing of a new vehicle this number alone is staggering approximately $1,300.00 annually, depending on the vehicle you choose.
If you like more power than what an economy car currently has to offer, you definitely can improve that with hydroxy. I do not know anyone that hasn't witnessed this that has experimented with hydroxy.
That in itself is proof that the hydroxy is making the fuel burn more completely.
The engine calms right down and runs very smooth, more proof that hydroxy is changing the way the engine is running.
I not only believe, but know that the engine is running cleaner so it has to be far better for the environment. I do not even know how to calculate this. But if I was to quantify it, I would say "Priceless"
If all you are looking for is mileage gains to prove or disprove this technology, then I agree the return would be disappointing. But if you look at it as a whole, I'm not sure you can put an honest payback together.
1 gallon of distilled water every 3,200 miles $1.00. I supply enough electrolyte with each kit to last up to 3 years. If I install and tune $389.00 one time fee. This would include the O2 extender(s) and map enhancer installed and tuned.
You achieve better mileage with more power, less carbon buildup so your engine last longer and your helping the environment I think that this is more than a reasonable return.
If you watch the world news you will see that within the next 10 months fuel prices will be up by 35% and by 2011 up by 65% then the equation you came up with will be blown out of the water without all the additional benefits that are achieved by running hydroxy.
China is buying as much crude oil as they can get there hands on, and this isn't because they are stupid. It is because they are very smart and they prepare for the worse.
As for documented proof, I really do not have any. But I do have customers that have bought my product and know me for who I am. And know that I am honest and stand behind what I do. I also keep them regularly updated on improved findings.
I upgrade there systems for them, so they can benefit the same as I do.
Most of my business is local. I have several fellow employees that are customers as well, and they to are seeing the same benefits.
As for what I report for gains is only what I have witnessed, although I have customers that claim much higher than what I see myself.
I have found that vehicles that already get real good mileage are hard to get any real substantial increases in mileage.
But They still run smoother, cleaner, and have increased power. But a properly 2 volt signal sent to the ecm will allow the engine to lean enough to get the mileage gains as well.
Before OB11 computers all you need to do is advance your timing , get the hydroxy as close to the throtle body as possible and your engine gets instant gains and benefits from the introduction of hydroxy.
One more note, this being done with a minimum amount of energy as to not create steam but pure hydroxy you are guaranteed to see positives results, and the engine will still run cooler than it did when just running gas or diesel.

Respectfully,
Bill

And the second reply from him:

HiChrist,

As my response to you may seem generic, and you may feel I did not directly answer your questions. I am certain that if you were to experiment with hydroxy you would find that my answers are accurate and honest.
As to how long it will take to get a payback, this is dependent upon how you quantify your gains, be it monetary or through self satisfaction. this is for you to decide.
As I continue forward and find a way to provide rock solid proof that there are real benefits from hydroxy in automobiles I will gladly share them with you.

I appreciate your interest,
Bill & Diana
Hydro-Extra LLC

10-14-2009, 07:12 PM	#3 (permalink)
Christ Moderate your Moderation. Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Troy, Pa. Posts: 8,919 Pasta - '96 Volkswagen Passat TDi 90 day: 45.22 mpg (US) Thanks: 1,369 Thanked 430 Times in 353 Posts	Generator Farce (title of email from the start) This is the first of a series of emails between myself and a salesman of the HHO (hydroxy, as he calls it) systems commonly available. Me, replying to Ad on Craigslist: Can you show me some testing that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that this generator will work to get me better fuel economy than I'm already getting, without having to buy some other device to falsify sensor signals, etc... Reply from Representative: Hi, If you are looking for a miracle this is not it. If you are looking for some mileage gains and a better cleaner performing engine, then the generators I am selling for a very reasonable price are definitely worth every penny for the benefits you get from them. I supply O2 extenders with each kit that help adjust the computer to let the hydroxy give mileage gains, and for under $25.00 you can buy a map enhancer to adjust your fuel supplied by the ecm. As hydroxy is read as unburned oxygen. And yes with a few simple tweaks your engine will benefit tremendously from the introduction of hydroxy. The fuel will burn more complete, your engine will not build up carbon deposits, you will not have all that unburned fuel getting into the crankcase causing premature engine wear, your oil stays cleaner over 3 times as long, the hydroxy will clean existing carbon buildup, your engine will have more power, run smoother, and be cleaner for the environment. I have seen all different mileage reports from 1 mpg gain to over 10 mpg gain. The best I seen was on a 2005 Mercury Sable with the 3.0 V6 I installed one generator and installed (2) pre-cat extenders, it took the mileage from 26 MPG to 37 MPG. That was 1-1/2 years ago and over 45,000 miles ago. the vehicles still runs like a top and the owner is very pleased with the way his vehicle responds to hydroxy. And by the way you cannot make any of these adjustments to your ecm without the generator as you would be sure to burn your valves. I have thousands of hours researching and testing plate configurations and have come up with a generator that runs cool and does not sludge up like others that have not done the research. These kits come with 10 gauge wiring, a 40 amp. relay, 30 amp auto reset breaker, 35 amp. toggle switch, 30 amp. ampmeter, all your wiring connectors, flashback arrestor, bubbler, hosing, intake plenum nutted elbow. complete installation instructions, and these are ran independent to the rest of your existing wiring harnesses so there is no worry of over heating existing wiring or blowing fuses. I can only tell you that I drive a 2000 Buick century 110 miles a day 5 days a week and I am seeing 3 to 4 MPG gains I also have a 1989 Southwind 27' RV with a 454 V8 that is getting an additional 1-1/2 MPG gain. I have installed these on numerous vehicles and have only gotten positive feedback. So I would say it's more than a myth. Thanks for the inquiry, Bill & Diana Hydro Extra LLC My answer to the above, re-posing the original question: Thanks for the generic response. Unfortunately, it didn't answer my question. I'm looking for a study or some scientific data that proves the NHTSA, EPA, and other organizations incorrect. Obviously, you haven't provided this in your (generic) response. Respondent's reply: Hello again, I wish I had a way to achieve a dyno test to prove the gains I am getting, as for the National Highway Traffic Safety Dept. I doubt there's a single legitimate person that can speak on behalf of Hydrogen on Demand Systems, as they are fed info. from sources like dateline that do not know enough to add electrolyte to the water to make it conductive for the electrolysis process to happen. If anyone watching what they were doing knew what they were looking at, surely would have picked up on this instantly. And as for the EPA they have nothing to gain by supporting hydrogen on demand as it cuts into tax dollars. This technology is definitely for the people that are not afraid to experiment some. and not for those who will not even change there own oil. Should you really be interested in the truth behind the many benefits from hydroxy you ought to visit HHOINFO - The International Open Source HHO / HOD Builders Network. This will help enlighten your supposed interest in this technology. Which is not new nor magical. If I had thousands of dollars to spend foolishly to prove something that any back yard mechanic has figured out, then I would not be working for a living. Our government, Opec, and the auto Industries will always stand in the way when it comes to giving back tax dollars. Maybe not our Government as I believe they are to stupid to pull off anything. Sorry I was not able to boost your ego, Bill Note the traditional "they're followers" attitude, and the attempt at shedding light on the "truth" noted above. Also note the feeble attack on myself. My reply, still making an attempt to be professional, and in good form: No sir, I'm not looking for an Ego Boost, by any means. I'm looking for proof that what you're claiming works. You can't even provide scientific evidence that it will work, by the sound of it. You're going based on "what everyone knows"... if everyone knew it, common sense would tell you that everyone would have it. At this point, based on your robotic responses, (which are generic, at best. I've gotten the same line of BS from everyone I've contacted about this, almost word for word...) you don't even understand the mathematics behind the system you're selling, which is built from stuff available at Home Depot for less than $50. At best, you're blindly following a cultist mentality, which believes that something can work, "just because". It doesn't work that way, my friend. Since water isn't a source of energy, it requires energy to be put into it. Assuming that you're running all conversions with 100% efficiency, which is physically impossible, the amount of energy needed to be put in will equal the amount of BTU content energy that the resultant gas has. Unless you can explain to me what part of physics I've missed here, I'm going to rest assured that you're yet another fraud, scamming for people's money because you can't get a reasonably paying job or perform a real needed service for your fellow man. Ok, so that wasn't really in the best form, but this was getting irritating. Another note from myself to the Representative, reposing the questions a third time, and adding more information to the discussion: By the way, you wouldn't need to spend thousands of dollars, and if you were selling as many of these as you should be, this "miracle technology", and saving as much fuel as you say you are, you should have the money to do a dyno test in savings alone. I don't believe for a second that you can prove any gains, and I'm rather concerned about whether or not you even know how to prove your claims. The NHTSA also does not "go by what others say" as you claim. If you knew anything about the highway administration, the first thing you'd know is that the top 20% of the administration is a bunch of scholars and engineers, all of which, I'm sure, are much higher educated than you or even myself. They conduct studies to prove or disprove what others, much like yourself, claim. They certainly do not "just take your word for it", as you so eloquently put it. The Respondent's reply to both letters: Hello again Christ, It seems to me that you really do not care about the benefits that are achieved from the introduction of hydroxy, nor will you ever believe in it. Believe me! before I experimented with it, I had my doubts as well. And I also encountered numerous bumps and I never just took what others had to say about it. I went about it the honest way. Sweat and tears. With thousands of hours of research and actual road test running with the system on and with it off to determine if there was actual benefits from running hydroxy. I work full time at a job that maybe 1 in 10,000 people could pull off in custom manufacturing & design for companies all over the world that look to me to resolve there design problems. And they keep coming back to me. Just as my customers have been very pleased with the systems that I have sold to them. This is my hobby as well as my business, and when I retire I will have this hobby and business to keep me occupied. You can doubt that this is viable and I am sure you always will. As for me and the many customers that I have and have been achieving positive results, we could care less what your thoughts are. I drive 54 miles to work one way, so I get plenty of road time to rule out that this "technology is imaginative". People that have only done the math could never ever gain from what hands on experience can gain them. This is certain in any field of study or work. People that only do the math when hydroxy is in the equation forget about the fact that when you increase the burn rate of any fuel it burns more completely. So your engine runs cleaner, smoother, and with more power. This is a fact and until you actually give it an honest try you will always be lacking the reality of it. I would like to see you go to home depot and put together a kit that even remotely resembles what I'm selling, as it is obvious you paid close attention to what you were seeing and in addition challenging. You my friend may be more educated than I as for gaining some type of scholarship but you will always be stupid when it comes to reality. I am not a scam artist or representing something that does not work or that is poorly designed, But as for your behavior towards people and there products that they have tested in there vehicles, and have seen the same results I have, should not be bashed by every book worm that thinks they know something they do not. If people like you would just try it for themselves and I meen honestly give it a chance and put there efforts into what all the benefits are from introduction of hydroxy this world would be a far better place to exist in, and cleaner. You need to go back to your research and prove that it does not work. And this can only be achieved by getting your hands dirty. I never set out to start conflict but I am not going to lay down when someone is calling me a cheat and a liar. I do know that there are a tremendous number of people out there misrepresenting this technology. And hyping it up only to make sales. I stand behind every generator I sell and will gladly reimburse the customer 100% if not satisfied. If you are so concerned with what I am doing. Why don't you take another look at what I am selling and be honest as to what you see before you rush to judge. Bill This is where the Representative makes note of testing that was performed, which may or may not be scientific, but completely ignores requests to provide itemized testing or data. My reply to the above: Bill - I'm enjoying this moderate "back and forth", if you will, but I must point out that once again, you've made assumptions based on information you do not, and can not possibly have about me. I have said nothing in direct offense to you, or at least, if you took it that way, I did not mean it to be in direct offense. Rather, I'm looking for evidence that what you claim is reality. That's all I ask. You say that you've tested for "thousands of miles" on your vehicles. Where are your detailed fuel logs? What information do you have to prove that what you claim is not just a spotty misrepresentation of fact? So far, in a series of emails, you've shown me nothing to prove that you're anything more than a Master Debater. To this end, I don't see any point in continuing to converse, unless you can provide something concrete, not just verbal claims and representations of what you feel is accurate. How exactly am I supposed to believe in the benefits of your system when you yourself haven't provided anything more than anecdotal evidence of it's benefits? Are you in the habit of believing in something based on the claims of others? I suppose that someone could tell you that if you try hard enough, you can fly as you are currently equipped? Of course you don't believe that... and what evidence has been provided? None! There is no real reason that you have given for me or anyone else to consider this anything more than junk science. I've asked you for honest results from an honest test, and you offend me. I ask again, with a slightly more pervasive tone, and you again, offend me. I'm happy for you and your career, I really am, but if this is the way you deal with your potential customers and clients, you, my friend, have a lot to learn. Or maybe you don't. By your own admission, you've got more intelligence than Scholars, right? I'm not even close to a Scholar, and I never said I was even so much as smarter than yourself, though I'm sure you inferred that from my last email. Beside the fact that I find this mildly amusing, I'm going to cut it down to this last request: Please, if you can, provide me with any kind of factual representation or data that shows that the systems that you install are sufficient to prove your claims. If you're really as smart as you think you are, I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something. If you're really the entrepreneur you think you are, you'll want to come up with something. All due respect, Christ. After 18 hours, still no reply, so I posed another query in hopes of getting some kind of response. I'd like to have a real conversation with the person, but I always get the same line from everyone I contact about the "technology" they are working with. Unfortunately, the only ones really putting down the technology are those who apparently are also trying to profit from it, by their attitudes toward potential customers, as displayed above. My last reply: Also, another request. Can you give me some insight as to the payback time for your system? In other words, how long will it be form the time that it's installed and tuned properly, assuming that I have you tune/install it, and given a nominally average gain, which is experienced by the majority of your users (best case scenario, in other words) how long would it take for the fuel savings to pay back the cost associated with installing your system? As a quick figure, I spend about $40 a week on fuel. If your system gives me 3 more MPG, or 10% better fuel economy, after being installed and tuned properly, it would save me about $4 a week. At $4 a week, and your nominal price tag of $189 (not counting installation), it would take just under a year (41-42 weeks) to pay itself off. Well, frankly, that's not all that bad. Now, lets count how much you add on to the cost in installation and extra parts requirements! I'm just going to give an assumed figure of $500 after installation, tuning, and extra pieces necessary, without knowing fully what your system requires for proper installation/tune. That makes it $500/4, or 125 weeks. That's right, now we're up to nearly 2.5 years. Add to that the cost of maintenance of the system, added electrolyte, and distilled water (which can't be gotten from a tap, and thus, is an additional cost), what does it really come to? We're probably well over 3 years to payoff at this point. So, can you correct my numbers, or does it just get worse from here? Please note that any figure listed in this email other than the $189 purchase price is an assumption based on my knowledge of vehicle repair and aftermarket installation/tuning. The numbers don't necessarily apply to this specific instance, but show the point nicely, I think. Update @ 21.15 - The representative has lowered his tone, as anticipated. He's sent me another note, still dodging most of the original questions with excuses. He does, however, shine light on the price for installation and tuning (ever the salesman, right?) makes light of my calculation of payback time, makes note (again) of several of the perceived benefits of the "hydroxy" system, and makes a reference to "being better for the environment". Hi Christ, First off I never intended to offend you and I am sorry if I came across that way. I just get tired of people saying that there is no way that these generators couldn't possibly benefit the engine as I and most everybody that has experimented with them has. True if you were only using a $4.00 per week savings based on a $40.00 purchase a 10% savings weekly x 52 weeks would only appear to be a $208.00 dollar payback annually. What your not taking into account is that your oil does not break down as rapidly from the unburned gas getting into the crankcase lowering the viscosity. So say you only have to change your oil every 4th or 5th month which if you were using synthetic oil this is not unheard of. Although not everybody uses synthetic oils you would save an additional $45.00 to $70.00 a year, although I still recommend changing the filter every 5,000 miles. The fact that the engine is running much cleaner you can expect a much longer engine life. Which if you were to calculate financing of a new vehicle this number alone is staggering approximately $1,300.00 annually, depending on the vehicle you choose. If you like more power than what an economy car currently has to offer, you definitely can improve that with hydroxy. I do not know anyone that hasn't witnessed this that has experimented with hydroxy. That in itself is proof that the hydroxy is making the fuel burn more completely. The engine calms right down and runs very smooth, more proof that hydroxy is changing the way the engine is running. I not only believe, but know that the engine is running cleaner so it has to be far better for the environment. I do not even know how to calculate this. But if I was to quantify it, I would say "Priceless" If all you are looking for is mileage gains to prove or disprove this technology, then I agree the return would be disappointing. But if you look at it as a whole, I'm not sure you can put an honest payback together. 1 gallon of distilled water every 3,200 miles $1.00. I supply enough electrolyte with each kit to last up to 3 years. If I install and tune $389.00 one time fee. This would include the O2 extender(s) and map enhancer installed and tuned. You achieve better mileage with more power, less carbon buildup so your engine last longer and your helping the environment I think that this is more than a reasonable return. If you watch the world news you will see that within the next 10 months fuel prices will be up by 35% and by 2011 up by 65% then the equation you came up with will be blown out of the water without all the additional benefits that are achieved by running hydroxy. China is buying as much crude oil as they can get there hands on, and this isn't because they are stupid. It is because they are very smart and they prepare for the worse. As for documented proof, I really do not have any. But I do have customers that have bought my product and know me for who I am. And know that I am honest and stand behind what I do. I also keep them regularly updated on improved findings. I upgrade there systems for them, so they can benefit the same as I do. Most of my business is local. I have several fellow employees that are customers as well, and they to are seeing the same benefits. As for what I report for gains is only what I have witnessed, although I have customers that claim much higher than what I see myself. I have found that vehicles that already get real good mileage are hard to get any real substantial increases in mileage. But They still run smoother, cleaner, and have increased power. But a properly 2 volt signal sent to the ecm will allow the engine to lean enough to get the mileage gains as well. Before OB11 computers all you need to do is advance your timing , get the hydroxy as close to the throtle body as possible and your engine gets instant gains and benefits from the introduction of hydroxy. One more note, this being done with a minimum amount of energy as to not create steam but pure hydroxy you are guaranteed to see positives results, and the engine will still run cooler than it did when just running gas or diesel. Respectfully, Bill And the second reply from him: HiChrist, As my response to you may seem generic, and you may feel I did not directly answer your questions. I am certain that if you were to experiment with hydroxy you would find that my answers are accurate and honest. As to how long it will take to get a payback, this is dependent upon how you quantify your gains, be it monetary or through self satisfaction. this is for you to decide. As I continue forward and find a way to provide rock solid proof that there are real benefits from hydroxy in automobiles I will gladly share them with you. I appreciate your interest, Bill & Diana Hydro-Extra LLC __________________ "¿ʞɐǝɹɟ ɐ ǝɹ,noʎ uǝɥʍ 'ʇı ʇ,usı 'ʎlǝuol s,ʇı" Last edited by Christ; 10-14-2009 at 10:22 PM.. Reason: New email from "Bill"