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Nerys · 10-19-2010, 10:35 PM

"I agree he should do this but sometimes you need to tune the wrong way to get an fe improvement that matches your driving method."

I am already at max advance without risk of damaging pinging or knocking whatever its called. :-)

"Many older cars are rather low compression, they aren't going to deal with it much better, just a little. I and my father have experienced rather large FE drops (all historical now) on several vehicles,
A 69 2 Door Chrysler went from 13mpg (ooh) to 9mpg
an 85 Yugo 35mpg to 29mpg
a 1983 Dodge 1/2 ton oddly the same as the 69."

69 2 door and 83 Dodge

90 miles on 10 gallon of E10
117 miles on 9 gallons of E0 (ie E10 with the 1 gallon ethanol removed)

so he can do 27 miles FURTHER on a gallon less.

85 Yugo

290 miles on 10 gallons of E10
315 miles on 9 gallons of E0

so he can go 25 miles FURTHER on a gallon less

Here is one more person with results matching my own.

"Also I cannot state with a straight face that there may not have been mechanical issues with the cars I had FE drops on and I do know that after cheaper ethanol was at the pumps the 69 dropped a fuel pump (I would argue that it wasn't fuel related though)"

It was the ethanol in all likely hood. the manufacturers know this which is why for a warranty claim they TEST the fuel and if its over 10% ethanol they DENY the warranty claim to replace the fuel pump.

The plastic and rubber in these older pumps are very INTOLERANT to ethanol they can barely handle E10 if at all and even slight more than 10% and they fail.

What people do not realize is HOW MUCH it costs to replace a fuel pump if you do not do it yourself. I have goten quotes as high as $800 !!! $1200 to do my van with the 35 gallon tank. Needless to say I bought the $140 pump assembly and did it myself. Damn you ford 2 bolts hold the fuel tank in place one I got off in 15 seconds the other took 30 minutes because instead of MOVING this bolt 3/4 of an inch forward or backwards they place it DIRECTLY inline with a hunk of the frame so I had to painfully slowly work that nut off :-) grrrrr

"Perhaps if someone with a bit more experience could look at an affected vehicle a fix might come up, perhaps he needs to open her up, rev the engine and slowly dump a gallon of distilled water down the intake. Then procede to power tune the thing, setting it a bit leaner than normal and setting the timing where it will end up. Not sure if this would make it worse or better, I have been told before that ethanol can be run very lean without noticable knocking which can be dangerous."

One thing that seems to come to mind is spark. if we could make them "spark hotter" our guess is they would handle the ethanol better. Problem is DOING this is very very expensive. I can not afford to try it.

"Also I have experienced more fuel filter replacements since ethanol struck, not sure if the detergent properties of ethanol might affect certain motors more than others but I do know sludge coming out of an old fuel tank can cause trouble."

This is common on "switching" to E10 because it does do a good job of cleaning but once you clean the tank and install the new filter this problem should go away from then on.

"NERY's since you were brave enough to water wash, have you ever tried doping the fuel? MMO, napathlene or very small amounts of Veggie oil? Around here Soybean oil (labled vegetable oil) goes on sale often for about $4 a gallon, if you are VERY confortable with potentially cleaning your engine out, get a small amount of e85, about a pint, Mix that pint with about 4oz of veggie oil for about 5 minutes vigorously. "

Interesting ideas and I MAY try them (but they COST money to try so it might not be cost effective will have to do some math on that)

Veggie oil I am leary of as I have heard it can really frak fuel injectors. I will have to do a bit more research before I take that leap.

Once I have a second metro I will may be more brave but right now if I kill this metro I am in DEEP KAKA as my fuel costs will jump $200-$250 a month instantly. Thats money I simply do not have.

"If you test one of the above post your results either no change or negative or positive. In your case your older cars may benefit from a bit of additive like MMO or Veggie or if you are brave napathlene which moves timing."

I won't have to worry about the fuel sitting. I fill up every 4 days or 5 days roughly depending on if I drive any of the other cars for any reason.

I drive a LOT of miles (minimum 110 miles every work day) so I can gather a lot of results in short order.

10-19-2010, 10:35 PM	#301 (permalink)
Nerys Grrr :-) Join Date: May 2008 Location: Levittown PA Posts: 800 Cherokee - '88 Jeep Cherokee 90 day: 19.44 mpg (US) Ryo-Ohki - '94 Geo Metro Xfi 90 day: 50.15 mpg (US) Vger 2 - '00 Plymouth Grand Voyager SE Ninja - '89 Geo Tracker 90 day: 30.27 mpg (US) Thanks: 12 Thanked 31 Times in 25 Posts	"I agree he should do this but sometimes you need to tune the wrong way to get an fe improvement that matches your driving method." I am already at max advance without risk of damaging pinging or knocking whatever its called. :-) "Many older cars are rather low compression, they aren't going to deal with it much better, just a little. I and my father have experienced rather large FE drops (all historical now) on several vehicles, A 69 2 Door Chrysler went from 13mpg (ooh) to 9mpg an 85 Yugo 35mpg to 29mpg a 1983 Dodge 1/2 ton oddly the same as the 69." 69 2 door and 83 Dodge 90 miles on 10 gallon of E10 117 miles on 9 gallons of E0 (ie E10 with the 1 gallon ethanol removed) so he can do 27 miles FURTHER on a gallon less. 85 Yugo 290 miles on 10 gallons of E10 315 miles on 9 gallons of E0 so he can go 25 miles FURTHER on a gallon less Here is one more person with results matching my own. "Also I cannot state with a straight face that there may not have been mechanical issues with the cars I had FE drops on and I do know that after cheaper ethanol was at the pumps the 69 dropped a fuel pump (I would argue that it wasn't fuel related though)" It was the ethanol in all likely hood. the manufacturers know this which is why for a warranty claim they TEST the fuel and if its over 10% ethanol they DENY the warranty claim to replace the fuel pump. The plastic and rubber in these older pumps are very INTOLERANT to ethanol they can barely handle E10 if at all and even slight more than 10% and they fail. What people do not realize is HOW MUCH it costs to replace a fuel pump if you do not do it yourself. I have goten quotes as high as $800 !!! $1200 to do my van with the 35 gallon tank. Needless to say I bought the $140 pump assembly and did it myself. Damn you ford 2 bolts hold the fuel tank in place one I got off in 15 seconds the other took 30 minutes because instead of MOVING this bolt 3/4 of an inch forward or backwards they place it DIRECTLY inline with a hunk of the frame so I had to painfully slowly work that nut off :-) grrrrr "Perhaps if someone with a bit more experience could look at an affected vehicle a fix might come up, perhaps he needs to open her up, rev the engine and slowly dump a gallon of distilled water down the intake. Then procede to power tune the thing, setting it a bit leaner than normal and setting the timing where it will end up. Not sure if this would make it worse or better, I have been told before that ethanol can be run very lean without noticable knocking which can be dangerous." One thing that seems to come to mind is spark. if we could make them "spark hotter" our guess is they would handle the ethanol better. Problem is DOING this is very very expensive. I can not afford to try it. "Also I have experienced more fuel filter replacements since ethanol struck, not sure if the detergent properties of ethanol might affect certain motors more than others but I do know sludge coming out of an old fuel tank can cause trouble." This is common on "switching" to E10 because it does do a good job of cleaning but once you clean the tank and install the new filter this problem should go away from then on. "NERY's since you were brave enough to water wash, have you ever tried doping the fuel? MMO, napathlene or very small amounts of Veggie oil? Around here Soybean oil (labled vegetable oil) goes on sale often for about $4 a gallon, if you are VERY confortable with potentially cleaning your engine out, get a small amount of e85, about a pint, Mix that pint with about 4oz of veggie oil for about 5 minutes vigorously. " Interesting ideas and I MAY try them (but they COST money to try so it might not be cost effective will have to do some math on that) Veggie oil I am leary of as I have heard it can really frak fuel injectors. I will have to do a bit more research before I take that leap. Once I have a second metro I will may be more brave but right now if I kill this metro I am in DEEP KAKA as my fuel costs will jump $200-$250 a month instantly. Thats money I simply do not have. "If you test one of the above post your results either no change or negative or positive. In your case your older cars may benefit from a bit of additive like MMO or Veggie or if you are brave napathlene which moves timing." I won't have to worry about the fuel sitting. I fill up every 4 days or 5 days roughly depending on if I drive any of the other cars for any reason. I drive a LOT of miles (minimum 110 miles every work day) so I can gather a lot of results in short order.