Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com - View Single Post - What's the best RV/motorhome aerodynamically?

slowmover · 12-18-2010, 01:03 AM

Why, SlowMover, do you hate RVs so much?

Pretty funny . . you read my other posts in this and other threads about RV's? Miss my point about "rhetorical"? I wasn't -- very specifically -- asking about your personal situation as it's none of my business. So accept my apologies, please.

RV's have limitations. Period. That many of us exceed them (abuse them) doesn't change that fact. I like them as well as you, probably. I'd be pleased to live full-time on the road. I have done so, and want to do so again. But I don't carry illusions about how cheap they are for those who are contemplating them for limited use. The initial cost plus financing, depreciation, repairs, maintenance, insurance and the rest involve more money than is at first apparent. The joke about square white boxes on wheels is that the finance note is longer in time than the RV will last.

So how often should I replace mine? 10 years? When it's 15-years old? And how much will I have spent over 30-years? Sure I've avoided the big fixed expenses of a house, but I also give up the opportunity to house more than a couple of people -- an extended family -- etc, etc. Even for a full-timer it's temporary unless one owns land in which case an RV is superfluous. I can build a tiny house and be better off.

So, yes, on a day-to-day basis the costs can be low with an RV. Can be. But aren't necessarily.

Sure, one can buy used (the only way I would do it), but at some point, say five years, it's going to be time to seal the roof, replace flooring and probably at least one appliance. Etc. They aren't well built for the most part, and whether on the road or sitting seems hardly to matter. One also needs experience in fixing automobiles and houses to be effective in keeping costs down. A desire to DIY. RV repair techs charge over $100/hour and are notoriously poor, as a group.

I don't know where you find your info on RV appliances. It's a monopoly market made up of two-three manufacturers. The cost of the item, the parts (and labor) are not cheap. Nor is the service life long in instances where use is constant. I've never had to pull apart a house-hold furnace to replace gaskets to insure an airtight seal, but I'd do it on any 5-year old RV furnace, used or not. Etc. Their "efficiency" is a function of their limited capacity (the refrigerator being an exception on life; but they're okay up to about 90F) and adequacy for a small space.

I think it would be an eye-opener to most folks of what it takes to keep an RV going in a cold winter. Condensation, alone, is a bear to deal with. Few RV's are built to deal with it. Very few. And the use is hard on them.

In further example I can order 5-tons worth of A/C off the Internet for my house for less than $2k. I can barely get [2] 15k roof A/C units for an RV for the same price. There isn't any question about which will perform better or last longer. And while you may have been able to run the A/C as you say, you certainly weren't on the Gulf Coast while doing it.

(And any point about what people did prior to electricity is irrelevant. No one lived in the Old South in any great numbers prior to the advent of central A/C. Heat is more dangerous than cold; it's not just the greater prevalence of disease).

There's a trade-off with being mobile, here. And the trade-offs are acceptable for the most part. When understood.

I agree with most all your points, so why not you with mine? I would much rather be in an RV park (for the most part) than any apartment complex . . one is full of owners, the other with renters. That's a no-brainer. But there are plenty of "RV parks" that are also in lousy areas, far from public transportation or even a decent grocery store. There are fewer choices as to where to live in the first place.

So let's say I wander into a bargain "aerodynamic" motorhome for $10k that needs little or nothing beyond what I can DIY. At what point do I break even on the road versus train, plane, bus and low-dollar motel? It's a long way off. Very long way off.

For someone with a contract of X-months, one can apply some IRS deductions and cost projections to come to a reasonable number. Business depreciation schedules for the full time employed if purchased new. But for a vehicle that's only used a few weeks per year it's not viable on a purely numbers basis. It can be where the contemplated time frame is years, without other housing to pay for. That's the kicker.

And, hell, a single guy can sleep in the back of a van at the truck stop, if we want to talk cheap. Read my link above from Survivalblog?

The tire info is standard RV stuff: tires have a date code. You may wish to read up on the "5-year rule" for useful life per manufacturers (mileage is irrelevant).

The other big problem is in having a permanent address. One just doesn't, legally, for the most part. It's a grey area. One needs a congenial relative, somewhere.

And, in expecting an insurance company to pay proper compensation (I recommend photos of everything, and a tax program to chart/track) as RV's just don't get respect in the courts (no wonder, as most RV'ers not retired are not well-to-do folks . . and access to the courts in the USA for the poor is as bad as in Mexico or Albania). My point being that the homeowner -- the fabled "conventional" American -- can make assumptions about security of any sort that is not quite true for full-time RV dwellers. Policies of "stated" versus "actual" value should be investigated, as RV's are NOT homes for these important purposes.

I'm third generation as an owner of aerodynamic, all-aluminum travel trailers so I have some idea about this. I live on the hurricane-prone Gulf Coast, so I fully expect to pack up someday and skedaddle away with my "home", as the stick-built one will be gone on return.

(I should have previously said I admire -- I do -- your resourcefulness and ability to see beyond conventions. It's a game up to a point, and then it isn't, eh?

)

To swing back around to the idea of "aerodynamic motorhome", it really is an oxymoron unless one is traveling 10-20,000 miles per year. Fuel cost is nearly irrelevant compared to all other costs. A trailer is superior in every respect on the issue of money, and some trailers are far better than others. One has a choice of tow vehicles when it is done properly. And that is, ultimately, where the fuel economy lays.

Since the idea is in this thread of making a living while being mobile some of you may recall this announcement last year:

IBM To Eliminate Permanent Employees

In evolutionary game theory, is my understanding, it is fated that other players will follow the successful lead of others. In Japan we already see a glut of temp workers who live in "coffin hotels":

Japanese Capsule Hotels

And here's a current American version:

American Temp Workers RV Life

I, for one, would rather be in an RV than in a hotel-coffin. The words I keep in mind are this:

"If it can be offshored, it will be. If it can be done online, so much the faster will it be sent away. If it can be outsourced, it will be. If it can be automated, it will be".

Even lawyers are losing their jobs to offshoring now. And read up on robotics and near-term projections for service industry automation.

As the middle class is now gone -- all the gains of the New Deal and later are now erased (fewer than 48% of homeowners now have equity in their homes, lower than in the Great Depression), it looks as though being able to be mobile has become paramount. Many, many Americans are trapped in houses they cannot sell. An RV -- properly chosen -- represents a back door. A way out, in some cases as "McJobs" come and go, since the other corporations -- large and small -- will divest themselves of any permanent employees.

One needs to be able to show up. Arbeit macht frei.

.

12-18-2010, 01:03 AM	#54 (permalink)
slowmover Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 2,442 2004 CTD - '04 DODGE RAM 2500 SLT Team Cummins 90 day: 19.36 mpg (US) Thanks: 1,422 Thanked 737 Times in 557 Posts	*Why, SlowMover, do you hate RVs so much?* Pretty funny . . you read my other posts in this and other threads about RV's? Miss my point about "rhetorical"? I wasn't -- very specifically -- asking about your personal situation as it's none of my business. So accept my apologies, please. RV's have limitations. Period. That many of us exceed them (abuse them) doesn't change that fact. I like them as well as you, probably. I'd be pleased to live full-time on the road. I have done so, and want to do so again. But I don't carry illusions about how cheap they are for those who are contemplating them for limited use. The initial cost plus financing, depreciation, repairs, maintenance, insurance and the rest involve more money than is at first apparent. The joke about square white boxes on wheels is that the finance note is longer in time than the RV will last. So how often should I replace mine? 10 years? When it's 15-years old? And how much will I have spent over 30-years? Sure I've avoided the big fixed expenses of a house, but I also give up the opportunity to house more than a couple of people -- an extended family -- etc, etc. Even for a full-timer it's temporary unless one owns land in which case an RV is superfluous. I can build a tiny house and be better off. So, yes, on a day-to-day basis the costs can be low with an RV. Can be. But aren't necessarily. Sure, one can buy used (the only way I would do it), but at some point, say five years, it's going to be time to seal the roof, replace flooring and probably at least one appliance. Etc. They aren't well built for the most part, and whether on the road or sitting seems hardly to matter. One also needs experience in fixing automobiles and houses to be effective in keeping costs down. A desire to DIY. RV repair techs charge over $100/hour and are notoriously poor, as a group. I don't know where you find your info on RV appliances. It's a monopoly market made up of two-three manufacturers. The cost of the item, the parts (and labor) are not cheap. Nor is the service life long in instances where use is constant. I've never had to pull apart a house-hold furnace to replace gaskets to insure an airtight seal, but I'd do it on any 5-year old RV furnace, used or not. Etc. Their "efficiency" is a function of their limited capacity (the refrigerator being an exception on life; but they're okay up to about 90F) and adequacy for a small space. I think it would be an eye-opener to most folks of what it takes to keep an RV going in a cold winter. Condensation, alone, is a bear to deal with. Few RV's are built to deal with it. Very few. And the use is hard on them. In further example I can order 5-tons worth of A/C off the Internet for my house for less than $2k. I can barely get [2] 15k roof A/C units for an RV for the same price. There isn't any question about which will perform better or last longer. And while you may have been able to run the A/C as you say, you certainly weren't on the Gulf Coast while doing it. (And any point about what people did prior to electricity is irrelevant. No one lived in the Old South in any great numbers prior to the advent of central A/C. Heat is more dangerous than cold; it's not just the greater prevalence of disease). There's a trade-off with being mobile, here. And the trade-offs are acceptable for the most part. When understood. I agree with most all your points, so why not you with mine? I would much rather be in an RV park (for the most part) than any apartment complex . . one is full of owners, the other with renters. That's a no-brainer. But there are plenty of "RV parks" that are also in lousy areas, far from public transportation or even a decent grocery store. There are fewer choices as to where to live in the first place. So let's say I wander into a bargain "aerodynamic" motorhome for $10k that needs little or nothing beyond what I can DIY. At what point do I break even on the road versus train, plane, bus and low-dollar motel? It's a long way off. Very long way off. For someone with a *contract* of X-months, one can apply some IRS deductions and cost projections to come to a reasonable number. Business depreciation schedules for the full time employed if purchased new. But for a vehicle that's only used a few weeks per year it's not viable on a purely numbers basis. It can be where the contemplated time frame is years, without other housing to pay for. That's the kicker. And, hell, a single guy can sleep in the back of a van at the truck stop, if we want to talk cheap. Read my link above from Survivalblog? The tire info is standard RV stuff: tires have a date code. You may wish to read up on the "5-year rule" for useful life per manufacturers (mileage is irrelevant). The other big problem is in having a permanent address. One just doesn't, legally, for the most part. It's a grey area. One needs a congenial relative, somewhere. And, in expecting an insurance company to pay proper compensation (I recommend photos of everything, and a tax program to chart/track) as RV's just don't get respect in the courts (no wonder, as most RV'ers not retired are not well-to-do folks . . and access to the courts in the USA for the poor is as bad as in Mexico or Albania). My point being that the homeowner -- the fabled "conventional" American -- can make assumptions about security of any sort that is not quite true for full-time RV dwellers. Policies of "stated" versus "actual" value should be investigated, as RV's are NOT homes for these important purposes. I'm third generation as an owner of aerodynamic, all-aluminum travel trailers so I have some idea about this. I live on the hurricane-prone Gulf Coast, so I fully expect to pack up someday and skedaddle away with my "home", as the stick-built one will be gone on return. (I should have previously said I admire -- I do -- your resourcefulness and ability to see beyond conventions. It's a game up to a point, and then it isn't, eh? ) To swing back around to the idea of "aerodynamic motorhome", it really is an oxymoron *unless* one is traveling 10-20,000 miles per year. Fuel cost is nearly irrelevant compared to all other costs. A trailer is superior in every respect on the issue of money, and some trailers are far better than others. One has a choice of tow vehicles when it is done properly. And that is, ultimately, where the fuel economy lays. Since the idea is in this thread of making a living while being mobile some of you may recall this announcement last year: IBM To Eliminate Permanent Employees In evolutionary game theory, is my understanding, it is fated that other players will follow the successful lead of others. In Japan we already see a glut of temp workers who live in "coffin hotels": Japanese Capsule Hotels And here's a current American version: American Temp Workers RV Life I, for one, would rather be in an RV than in a hotel-coffin. The words I keep in mind are this: "If it can be offshored, it will be. If it can be done online, so much the faster will it be sent away. If it can be outsourced, it will be. If it can be automated, it will be". Even lawyers are losing their jobs to offshoring now. And read up on robotics and near-term projections for service industry automation. As the middle class is now gone -- all the gains of the New Deal and later are now erased (fewer than 48% of homeowners now have equity in their homes, lower than in the Great Depression), it looks as though being able to be mobile has become paramount. Many, many Americans are trapped in houses they cannot sell. An RV -- properly chosen -- represents a back door. A way out, in some cases as "McJobs" come and go, since the other corporations -- large and small -- will divest themselves of any permanent employees. One needs to be able to show up. Arbeit macht frei. . Last edited by slowmover; 12-18-2010 at 01:24 AM..