[UFO]

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

OK , How's this for rational.

Whereas my 04 Honda Civic Sedan is a car very likely to benefit from the use of airtabs, the VW Beetle would be the least likely to see an improvement. I believe this is due to the question of simply where on the Beetle would you put the tabs in the huge transition area, then what effect would they have on what appears to me to be a very large area where the air actually does separate from the back of the car. And if you don’t think I’ve given the Beetle aerodynamics much thought, you obviously have not researched my previous postings.

Scientifically, VG’s serve on aircraft as control surface devices, they don't help the plane fly faster or further on a tank of gas.

Rational, but arrogant.

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

I question how something sticking up only 1 inch or so on a car, which is devoid of laminar/orderly flow on its surface due to the unaerodynamic forms poking up everywhere, could possibly effect the relatively huge amount of air flowing within the 24 inches or so of the body which has probably 80% of the effect on aerodynamics, and out to 20 feet for the remaining 20%. In other words, it is like saying you're going to walk up to a 24" hole at the bottom of the Hoover Dam and plug it with a wine bottle cork. To the rational among us, that makes no sense. And some of us rational people speak out when they hear such absurd things. Because that's how we are.

Rational, but rhetorical, exaggerated and unsupported.

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

I hate pseudoscience with a passion, that's where someone takes a small truth and then horribly mixes in a bunch of technobabble to make it sound like it might work. Call me Prejudice if you will, I prefer Skeptic. If you think air tabs might work, than I'd guess Skeptic is a word very far down on long list you would use to describe yourself with Sucker, Gullible, and Dupe being very high on the list. Nothing personal, we all have to be something, it's just how we're wired.

A bit irrational, bordering on personal attack.

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

Airtabs are usually touted as a huge energy saving device and the companies selling them are essentially snake oil/HHO generator salesmen, they are people who probably know what they are selling is worthless, but they look at it as “simply a way to make a living.” They think, “If you wanna be a sucker and not look into what I’m saying, than that’s your problem. If they don’t work as advertised for you, I can always blame it on misapplication on your part.” Yeah, I have a problem with people who think like that.

Very true. I often have issues with gullible people too, however this topic is not purely snake oil as aerodynamics are just that, dynamic and thus difficult to confine to a simple explanation.

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

VG’s don't work 99% of the time. There is not a .01% of the time where VG’s are going to have a vast improvement on the fuel efficiency of a car in the real world. However, 99% of the time they “Can improve efficiency by up to 15%” in ad copy. In the rare instances when they do work, results are minute.

You may be right, on the other hand that number is made up. Nevertheless Metro's testing leads one to think the "theory" of the VGs is somewhat accurate, as he increased his frontal area without decreasing his mileage.

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

Now that's rational, it isn't agreeable, but thats not what you asked for.

I have to admit I am curious about the use of VGs in my application because they are cheap enough to simply experiment, and few people here have played with the New Beetle aerodynamics. I don't expect a big difference, especially after reading the paper on the Mitsu, but it's hardly "Unicorn Corral territory".