View Single Post
Old 10-22-2011, 09:12 AM   #100 (permalink)
JasonG
Master EcoModder
 
JasonG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Charlotte NC / York SC
Posts: 728

05 DMax - '05 Chevrolet 2500HD
90 day: 18.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 120
Thanked 56 Times in 52 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan View Post
The graph is depicting the Peukert Effect.
This can be misleading / confusing to some people.
The battery discharged at 3C does not loose significant amounts of mWh compared to the same battery discharged at 2C... or 1C.

The batteries do not actually hold less energy when you discharge them faster ... Chemical reactions in batteries take time ... the faster you try to pull energy out of a given battery the faster you will seem to initially discharge it ... but if you give the chemical reactions time to catch up ( rest ) you get what some of the old time EVers call .. 'growing amps' ... The chemical energy didn't just appear from no where ... it was there before ... you were just electrically drawling off energy faster than the chemical reaction could keep up.

I will agree however ... that this effect is a dis-advantage of Batteries .. and by proxy BEVs , compared to gaseous and liquid fuels which do not reduce in power output until the tank is next to empty... but while a loss of power toward the end of a batteries capacity is a negative for BEVs ... it is also a separate issue from MPGe.



This is a often quoted piece of mis-interpreted information.

Even if we ignore other batteries have different cycle efficiencies for charging and discharging.

This 66% number is more accurately the cycle efficiency of some of the common NiMH charge termination methods ... which is not the same as the cycle efficiency of the NiMH battery itself.

Typical NiMH charging systems over charge the battery ... which throws away energy ... kind of like trying to poor a 1 gallon jug of water into a shot glass ... sure you can keep pouring ... but you won't ever fit 1 gallon into that little shot glass ... and the 66% efficiency number is using that kind of testing methods.

If you don't believe me ... feel free to run the test properly for yourself.

NiMH is actually over ~90% cycle efficient... exact number will vary some with specific conditions.

Proper testing includes:
#1> Accurately determine the storage size of a single NiMH cell.
From a full charge, how many mAh will it discharge?

#2> To prevent overcharging ... only put in what you know it can hold.
If your AA NiMH puts out ~2,000 mAh on discharge ... put in ~95% of that ~2,000 mAh during charging... or ~1,900 mAh.

#3> Measure the mAh given during discharge

#4> Repeat the above a minimum of ~3 times.

Every time I have done this ... I have ended up with ~90% cycle efficiency numbers.

Remember for this type of test you are counting the mWh going into and out of the battery ... the efficiency of the charger , and the dis-charger are separate issues , and should be isolated form your battery testing data.



Like most things ... it depends on the specifics.
Temperature ... specific parts ... driving methods , and context ... etc.

But yes over 90% efficiency is achievable today with modern technology you can buy today for a BEV ... If you want I can give you some specific components that will result in over 90% BEV efficiency.

In practice we don't use the best components and people drive in wasteful methods ... so the % will be lower ... just like it will be lower for both the BEV and the ICE... neither one operates all the time at their peak efficiency.



The Prius is a very efficienct gasoline ICE ... but it is not possible to operate the vehicle on a yearly bases in the tiny ~39% efficiency window.

After the engine is warmed up ... in it's tiny sweet spot of RPM and torque ... when all the factors align perfectly ... then it gets a maximum of ~39% efficiency... see attached graph bellow ... the ~39% efficiency point is only in the 195 g / kwh part of the graph ... and only after the ICE is warmed up.

Sorry ... but 15% to 20% energy efficiency ... is about what the average ICE averages out throughout the year , for operating energy efficiency ... winter being the worst season.



Full cycle ... ALL methods of using fossil fuels are horribly energy inefficient forms of using solar energy.

In terms of energy efficiency Full Cycle Renewable energy sources for either ICEs or BEVs are greatly more energy efficient than any fossil fuel option.

In terms of Full Cycle energy efficiency RE-BEV is more energy efficient than RE-ICE... ICE efficiency kills it ... plus Photovoltaic cells ( as bad as they are ) are more energy efficient than photosynthesis.



100% agree.



Far more than the 0% of friction brakes.

When you add up the energy kwh spent ... you do not have to travel very far distances ... before rolling resistance losses in kwh dominate massively over the kwh used for accelerating.

Additionally ... F = MA ... to increase the energy needed for the same acceleration you would have to increase the weight by the same % ... a ~50% increase in energy for accelerating would require ~50% more total vehicle weight ... it is a linear relationship ... just as rolling resistance is linear with weight as well.

- - - - - - - - - - -



Excellent point.

In a vehicle with the same aerodynamics ... the same weight ... etc.

The Volt shows at the vehicle level ... a ~2.6x energy advantage to the BEV mode ... as a gallon of Gasoline actually has ~36 kwh.

Which is similar to the other studies already posted.

- - - - - - - - - -



You left it too open ... and too easy... prepare to go back on your claim ... or conceed.


Even with old tech ... using lead acid batteries , etc ... a 1,500 HP BEV Locomotive that runs for 12 hours per charge ... can pull much more than a 16,000 lbs trailer ... a modern version using modern components like Lithium batteries ... would easily be able to run for 4x a long as this Lead Sled.

Here's a picture of the Lead Acid one in Altoona Pa ... they built to test the platform of a BEV Locomotive without a diesel generator.



- - - - - - - - -



100% agree.

- - - - - - - - -



I agree ... it is an arbitrary point in the system ... just like picking the fossil fuel and ignoring the energy efficiency losses from solar energy to produce that fossil fuel it in the first place is also an arbitrary point in the system.

But it is the arbitrary point in the system that our current MPG system is based on... it is the currently widely accepted standard.

We are not likely to change our entire MPG system the public uses, by including the losses up-stream... the public expects 1 gallon pumped to = 1 gallon ... to go 30 miles when they drive 30 miles ... etc... is that an arbitrary point in the full energy cycle ? ... of course ... but that is the way the public does it at this time ... that is the current standardized method.... as flawed as it may be.

Nice train, you still don't have an electric pick up that nears my requirements.


---------------------–


I thought the DOE put all of this to bed with their extensive study http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...4446-filed.pdf

1KWH = 13 GAL U.S.
__________________



I can't understand why my MPG's are so low..........
21,000lb, 41' Toy Haulers are rough on FE!
  Reply With Quote