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Old 02-09-2012, 01:10 PM   #90 (permalink)
Ken Fry
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Originally Posted by Cameron318iS View Post
I have an HHO on my car and didn't see and mileage increase but I did get a 14hp and 10ft.lbs increase with no decrease in mileage, So I saw it as a plus!
Assuming that this increase was at WOT and perhaps 5500 rpm, would it be safe to say that the engine was taking in air at about 5500 liters per minute? (I'm guessing a 2 liter engine?) Were you producing about 1 liter per minute with your "HHO" device? In other words, about .66 liters of H2 and .33 liters of O2?

And one liter is way stronger than wooden matches, I used to make mini hydrogen bombs and they were pretty damn strong, damn near killed a kid who tried putting his ciggerette out on a baloon filled with it.
How much is the energy value of .66 liter (.66 x .09 grams) of H2? Is Wikipedia incorrect? They say 141.9 kJ per gram. So .06 grams would be about 8.43 kJ. This is 141 watt minutes. If the input energy to your HHO unit is 14.5 V and 10 amps, then you are consuming 145 watt-minutes to produce one liter of H2. This suggests that you operate at a net loss, but at an absurdly high efficiency for electrolysis -- your one liter must include some steam. But all that does not matter. Others can see that the 141 watt-minutes of H2 is an unmeasurably tiny energy quantity given the likely 100,000 watt-minutes (134 hp-minutes) of mechanical energy produced by your engine each minute. If the H2 arrived at your car for free, energetically (and if it did not displace air needed for combustion) you should expect an increase of .14% in HP: about .18 hp. (In reality, even this would not happen. H2 gas displaces air, so injecting H2 gas into the intake airstream reduces power output, because fuel flow is automatically cut back to make up for the O2 deficit.)

Wood has an energy value of about 15 kJ per gram. So a 1 gram match stick has an energy value of 15 kJ, almost twice the energy value of a liter of the H2/O2 mix you call HHO. Is Wikipedia wrong here too? If we added the head of the match, we'd be even further ahead with the match stick.

The secret is to get an alternate power source to power the cell.
Darn... not a secret any longer. Here, you seem to be saying that thermodynamics does matter. You seem to be promoting the conventional, very expensive, means for running a car on hydrogen: buy the H2 in a tank, and let someone else incur the energy cost of creating the H2. (When you buy electrolysed H2, you are paying mainly for the energy used to create and store the H2, which is always less than the energy you get out of it by burning it, a sad consequence of those pesky thermodynamics laws.)

And having a higher load on the alternator doesn't reduce you mpg
Here, you seem to be saying that thermodynamics does not matter. What were you intending to say: 1. Thermodynamics does not matter (things work by magic). or 2. Thermodynamics matters (things work by science)?

Given your quest for a "magnet motor", I assume it is the latter, but you are sending out mixed messages. If you are in the first class, then I'd recommend reading about combustion. (John Heywood, the MIT guy who convincingly showed that HHO units have no effect at all, has written several very good textbooks -- classics in the field of combustion.) If you are in the latter class, then I'd suggest visiting Keelynet and Peswiki, where claims of magic get a better reception than they do here.

It's just a matter of finding the tribe where you belong.
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