[IamIan]

Originally Posted by t vago

Specific volume of liquid water at 80 C: 0.00103 m^3 / kg
Specific volume of steam at 80 C: 3.40527 m^3 / kg
Expansion ratio at 80 C: 3306.1:1
Vapor pressure of steam at 80 C: 47.4 kPa

So ... no amount of pressure can contain this expansion , 1Pa or 1TPa the expansion is the same ... the gravity of a black hole could not contain this expansion ... traveling at the speed of light the expansion would proceed forward faster than the speed of light ... as long as it is at 80C it always expands the same amount ... and there is always an expansion ... even when 80C is bellow the phase change point of the liquid water ... yeah ... that's doesn't seem right to me.

I think some other factors could have an influence... like a box not big enough for that much expansion.

Originally Posted by t vago

Grow up.

Interesting ... you fabricate a work of fiction ... then try to pass it off as if it were a quote from me ... and when I try to politely point that out ... You ask me to grow up.

Originally Posted by t vago

I never stated that you made that particular statement

wow ... that's interesting denial.

Who were you referring to then with your quote?
To me , it seemed like you were referring to me.

Originally Posted by t vago

You spent an entire post that all but stated that explicit statement

I didn't claim that ... those aren't my words ... that isn't my position.

Originally Posted by t vago

now you appear to be taking offense when I summarize your faulty position within quote marks.

I am taking offense to you fabricating a false quote.

If you think my position is faulty ... fine ... making up fictional quotes is not necessary... it is not appreciated ... and I do take offense to it... even if you see nothing wrong with it.

Originally Posted by t vago

you devoted a novelette to expressing that idea, that steam could somehow be treated as an ideal gas because the ideal gas doesn't perfectly model the behavior of real gases.

I've tried to address this misunderstanding of yours before ... I don't know how else to try and explain it ... so that you don't come back to this same incorrect impression of my position.

Originally Posted by t vago

No, but you are willing to discard over a century of collected real-world data about how water behaves, all because it doesn't jibe with your religious fascination with the ideal gas law.

Incorrect.

Reminder ... you don't know my thoughts , much less my religious beliefs...
As being myself ... I am more qualified about this than you are.

I tried to explain to you my view about the data I think you are referring to ... I am not discarding it ... anymore than I would be discarding the autoignition point of changing the temperature and pressure for a container with air and gasoline in it... anymore than I would be discarding data for hydrogen and oxygen at various temperatures and pressures that also will not always follow the ideal gas law.

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I have my doubts ... but I'll try again to try and explain the difference between my position and what it seems to me is the impression of what my position is what you keep getting.

Weather it is 1700:1 , 1600:1 , or 1500:1 ... The energy that ( for lack of a better descriptor ) 'fueled' that expansion if not spent for the expansion ... because the limited volume of the container prevented it ... will result in greater pressures ... those greater pressures can have other influences ... increased pressures will raise the phase transition point of liquid water ... increased pressures will raise temperatures of compressible materials like gases.

Take the boiling of water on a kitchen stove top for example ... if the container it can expand into is large enough so that the expansion of the steam being phase changed is not restricted by the container , than the steam coming off a open pot of boiling water does not increase in pressure ... if the container however is smaller ... like a pressure cooker ... so that the steam given off does not have enough room to expand ... the result of that lack of sufficient volume for expansion is that the pressure inside goes up ... as the pressure goes up it also has other secondary effects ... the phase change point of the water goes up due to the increased pressure ... because the phase change point has gone up to a higher temperature ... the remaining liquid water can be brought up to higher temperatures than it could have at the lower pressures.... this increase in the phase change temperature happens after or as a result of the increased pressure ... prior to the pressure increasing the water could not increase its' temperature... it was already at the phase transition temperature for the lower pressure... and if the volume of the container does not restrain that expansion ... the pressure will not go up.

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The difference between what I am claiming and what it seems you keep getting the impression of what I am claiming ... is that I am not pretending it is just the ideal gas law as some kind of theory of everything ... The ideal gas law does not itself show the effects of pressure on the phase transition temperature of the liquid water ... and those effects and others do have real world effects ... and they should be considered and accounted for ... just because I talk about one of those influences does not mean I am discarding all other influences that will effect the system.

I doubt that explanation will make it any more clear than previous attempts ... but oh well.