Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
So ... no amount of pressure can contain this expansion , 1Pa or 1TPa the expansion is the same ... the gravity of a black hole could not contain this expansion ... traveling at the speed of light the expansion would proceed forward faster than the speed of light ... as long as it is at 80C it always expands the same amount ... and there is always an expansion ... even when 80C is bellow the phase change point of the liquid water ... yeah ... that's doesn't seem right to me.
|
In other words... you have no clue about what humidity is? You do not know anything about the law of partial pressures? You admit to not knowing how gases behave in a mixture? Is this what you're saying?
You gave a specific temperature for saturated steam. You never specified anything else. I quickly gave you the data for which you were so eagerly hoping to prove the steam tables to be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
I think some other factors could have an influence... like a box not big enough for that much expansion.
|
You're apparently saying there is no box in the world that's big enough to contain both liquid water and water vapor at 80 C. Did I read that right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
Interesting ... you fabricate a work of fiction ... then try to pass it off as if it were a quote from me ... and when I try to politely point that out ... You ask me to grow up.
|
So you did not actually say this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
Technically no gas 100% follows the ideal gas law ... because no gas is actually 100% ideal... but the basic principle of the relationships shown in the ideal gas law do still apply ... even to saturated steam.
|
Or can you tell me the substantial difference between that statement you made above, and this one?
"since no gas exactly follows the ideal gas law, we can still treat steam as an ideal gas"
Give me an explanation that substantially differentiates what you said and what I put in quotes. Show me the substance whereby you can justify your being offended. Include in your explanation that
I explicitly stated you did not actually say the words that I arranged and placed in quotes, both in the post you responded to, and in this very post.
And while you're at it, grow a thicker skin. (In other words, grow up).
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
wow ... that's interesting denial.
Who were you referring to then with your quote?
To me , it seemed like you were referring to me.
|
What are you, some sort of politician now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
I didn't claim that ... those aren't my words ... that isn't my position.
|
Really? You didn't actually state this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
Technically no gas 100% follows the ideal gas law ... because no gas is actually 100% ideal... but the basic principle of the relationships shown in the ideal gas law do still apply ... even to saturated steam.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
I am taking offense to you fabricating a false quote.
If you think my position is faulty ... fine ... making up fictional quotes is not necessary... it is not appreciated ... and I do take offense to it... even if you see nothing wrong with it.
|
You also have faulty reading comprehension skills. I have explicitly stated that you did not actually say the phrase I put in quotes, both in that other post that you responded to, and this here post.
That you take offense to being paraphrased is rather remarkable.
It's called paraphrasing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
Incorrect.
Reminder ... you don't know my thoughts , much less my religious beliefs... 
As being myself ... I am more qualified about this than you are. |
It would help your position immensely, if you actually knew about what you were talking about. For instance, whether you knew what the definition of saturated steam was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
I have my doubts ... but I'll try again to try and explain the difference between my position and what it seems to me is the impression of what my position is what you keep getting.
Weather it is 1700:1 , 1600:1 , or 1500:1 ... The energy that ( for lack of a better descriptor ) 'fueled' that expansion if not spent for the expansion ... because the limited volume of the container prevented it ... will result in greater pressures ... those greater pressures can have other influences ... increased pressures will raise the phase transition point of liquid water ... increased pressures will raise temperatures of compressible materials like gases.
|
Give me the definition of saturated steam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
Take the boiling of water on a kitchen stove top for example ...
|
Okay. You're adding heat to a container containing both liquid water and saturated steam at a given temperature. So what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
if the container it can expand into is large enough so that the expansion of the steam being phase changed is not restricted by the container , than the steam coming off a open pot of boiling water does not increase in pressure
|
Saturated steam at a given temperature has a given pressure.
Conversely, saturated steam at a given pressure has a given temperature.
Otherwise, it's not saturated steam.
What is so hard to understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
... if the container however is smaller ... like a pressure cooker ... so that the steam given off does not have enough room to expand ... the result of that lack of sufficient volume for expansion is that the pressure inside goes up
|
Your example still has saturated steam, since there is still liquid water present. So what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
... as the pressure goes up it also has other secondary effects ... the phase change point of the water goes up due to the increased pressure ... because the phase change point has gone up to a higher temperature ... the remaining liquid water can be brought up to higher temperatures than it could have at the lower pressures.... this increase in the phase change temperature happens after or as a result of the increased pressure ... prior to the pressure increasing the water could not increase its' temperature... it was already at the phase transition temperature for the lower pressure... and if the volume of the container does not restrain that expansion ... the pressure will not go up.
|
And at the end of the day, in your vessel containing both liquid and water vapor, if there's still liquid water present, then there's still saturated steam present! It doesn't matter what the temperature is (as long as it's below 373 C). It doesn't matter what the pressure is (as long as it's below about 22 MPa).
Tell me something: What is your definition of saturated steam?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
The difference between what I am claiming and what it seems you keep getting the impression of what I am claiming ... is that I am not pretending it is just the ideal gas law as some kind of theory of everything
|
I'm going to keep beating you over the head with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
Technically no gas 100% follows the ideal gas law ... because no gas is actually 100% ideal... but the basic principle of the relationships shown in the ideal gas law do still apply ... even to saturated steam.
|
Steam mostly does not follow the ideal gas law, and saturated steam definitely does not follow the ideal gas law. If you were to take saturated steam in a constant volume at 100 C, raise the temperature of that steam to 120 C, and then try to use the ideal gas law to guess the new pressure, then you'd definitely get a wrong answer.