[johnpr]

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

West Bengal, Kerala, and Tripura are Indian states, not a country. West Bengal is only 7.8% of the population of India as a whole, and a communist party having such an electoral record against other parties in a few states doesn't make the country communist. If India were communist (and it is not), the CPI would not be the leading party -- it would be the only party.

im aware of them being states, you stated that communist regimes have always been totalitarian, although these states are not a country, it is an example of communism and democracy in the same system, and i doubt that it would be the only party, neither of us can say for sure because we havent seen that large of a communist democracy but we still cant discount what is happening.

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

In Nicaragua, we didn't cause the downfall of the country. If we hadn't supported the Contras, do you really believe the Sandinistas would have been pressured into having the elections that resulted in Chamorro becoming president?

After the 1972 earthquake and Somoza's brazen corruption, mishandling of relief, and refusal to rebuild Managua, the ranks of the Sandinistas were flooded with young disaffected Nicaraguans who no longer had anything to lose. These economic problems propelled the Sandinistas in their struggle against Somoza by leading many middle- and upper-class Nicaraguans to see the Sandinistas as the only hope for removing the brutal Somoza regime

The Sandinistas, supported by much of the populace, elements of the Catholic Church, and regional and international governments, took power in July of 1979

Upon assuming office in 1981, U.S. President Ronald Reagan condemned the FSLN for joining with Cuba in supporting Marxist revolutionary movements in other Latin American countries such as El Salvador. His administration authorized the CIA to begin financing, arming and training rebels, some of whom were the remnants of Somoza's National Guard, as anti-Sandinista guerrillas.

The U.S. also sought to place economic pressure on the Sandinistas, and the Reagan administration imposed a full trade embargo

U.S. support for this Nicaraguan insurgency continued in spite of the fact that impartial observers from international groupings such as the European Union, religious groups sent to monitor the election, and observers from democratic nations such as Canada and the Republic of Ireland concluded that the Nicaraguan general elections of 1984 were completely free and fair. The Reagan administration disputed these results however, despite the fact that the government of the United States never had any observers in Nicaragua at the time.

After the U.S. Congress prohibited federal funding of the Contras in 1983, the Reagan administration continued to back the Contras by covertly selling arms to Iran and channeling the proceeds to the Contras

Multi-party democratic elections were held in 1990, which saw the defeat of the Sandinistas by a coalition of anti-Sandinista (from the left and right of the political spectrum) parties led by Violeta Chamorro, the widow of Pedro Joaquín Chamorro. The defeat shocked the Sandinistas as numerous pre-election polls had indicated a sure Sandinista victory and their pre-election rallies had attracted crowds of several hundred thousand people. The unexpected result was subject to a great deal of analysis and comment, and was attributed by commentators such as Noam Chomsky and S. Brian Willson to the U.S./Contra threats to continue the war if the Sandinistas retained power and the general war-weariness of the Nicaraguan population.


so like i said, the US caused the downfall of a government which A. had elections, B. was desired by the people, all because president reagen didnt like theire ties with cuba.

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

As for China, look back at what I said earlier. I won't dignify your repeated commentary about how bad we are/were -- it's irrelevant and if you can't make your point without saying something like that, you don't have a very good case.

my point came before commenting on human rights, the human rights part was pointing out my awareness that they have had issues with human rights but we are far from saying that we have been any better

Originally Posted by johnpr

china is the worlds 4th largest economy, For much of China's population, living standards have seen extremely large improvements, and freedom continues to expand, but political controls remain tight

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

I
Laos has a "great" economy? Huh? Did you not even look down the page to see that 80% of Laos' workforce is dedicated to subsistence farming? 7% growth of essentially nothing is 7% more of nothing, progress though it is. The article also says the growth didn't start until economic restrictions were relaxed (i.e. private enterprise, AKA capitalism, was allowed).

re-read what i said, i didnt say the economy is great, i said they are having great economic growth. im sure you know the difference.

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

I
Since you brought up pollution, I will refer you to this post of mine earlier in the thread. Are you choosing to ignore my points about ecologically dead rivers, the Aral Sea, rusting hulks of nuclear vessels, and might I add Chernobyl?

how about clearcutting rainforests, strip mining, black lung, pollution litterally ruining the lives of fish, wildlife, cows and humans at akwesesne and other locations in the US http://www.fluoridealert.org/f-industry.htm . all of this was done trying to get more money.

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

I
Don't be surprised if two generations from now, some twenty-something says "What was the big deal about Islamic terrorism?," and when that happens, I suggest you recall this discussion.

my first point will be that it isn't islamic terrorism, not all muslims are bad, infact the terrorists represent only a small percent of the population and sadly we are to blame for the way we are viewed by them, we have done some very bad things to the muslim people especially in our prison camps. but i do understand what you are saying, and i respect your stance on the matter, it's kind of refreshing hearing someone talk about communism and actually know the downfalls. I wont claim that it is a perfect system, my only real point is that some people like it and that it is not all bad, many of the bad things that have happened under communism have happened under capitalism as well, its all human nature and greed.

-john