[IamIan]

Originally Posted by P-hack

Well I did ask you to clarify, and you chastise instead.

Where ... what post did you do that?
If I missed this , that's my bad.

What I read was you asking me to repeat what I've already written ... And I pointed you to go back and re-read it instead of me repeating myself ... because , repeating is not clarifying.

I already showed you references and math that added up ... what about that do you need to have clarified?

Originally Posted by P-hack

Your beliefs hinge on vaporware as far as I can tell.

????? I don't understand how you could even come to that conclusion ????

None of the devices I listed are vaporware ... not the two different motor controllers ( one being from the 2004 Prius ) ... not the motor ... not the engine you gave a BSFC for ... none of it.

Originally Posted by P-hack

I think it is more accurate for you to say something like:"maybe there is a scenario where an optimized generator is actually more efficient than an optimized pusher with a skilled driver, but I haven't really done a complete analysis, nor can I say that the bulk of range extended miles would be most efficiently accomplished by a generator, we do know that a pusher has higher peak efficiencies and that a good driver can make a world of difference, such as the %25 improvement in the renault-nissan EV link".

That would actually be less accurate.

I'll just add some color codes and brief notes to explain a bit as to why ... if you want me to clarify any of these points , let me know.

Green
'maybe' is incorrect when I know of several that are... that would be like me saying ... 'maybe' earth has a moon.

Red
'a complete analysis' is not possible ... not even if we had every human on the planet working on it for 100 years.

Now if you want to change that from a complete analysis to ... I've completed an analysis ... that is entirely different ... and sense I have already completed an analysis ... that would be an incorrect statement.

Blue
Of course ... that's what I've been saying all along ... it would depend on the situation ... the specific performance curves of the devices and the specific factors that presented themselves over those miles.

But that is true on both sides ... the pusher is not the default winner ... the situation determines the winner.

Yellow
Agreed.

Bold
Agreed ... but it is important to remember that aspect is true on both sides ... not just one ... A good driver can do better with Pusher or Generator.

It is also important to remember ... the driver has limits based on the situation of the particular device and the route and such he is driving... the BSFC is the BSFC ... the Gear Ratios of the Transmission are the gear ratios... the traffic is the traffic ... etc.

Originally Posted by P-hack

The advantages you want to remove is the driver, and higher peak efficiency (over a wide range of operating parameters).

Incorrect.
I've never asked to remove the driver ... I have pointed out situations.

The points on the BSFC you showed that are less efficient than 220g/kwh are not just isolated peak points ... it is a significant chunk of the operating range of the ICE you referenced... see attached bellow.

Originally Posted by P-hack

I am not convinced of your assertion that an ICE and/or technique optimization applied to the same scenario on a pusher as an optimized generator will not always be more efficient for the "pusher", we have some clear cases where pusher is more efficient, the cases where you claim generator is more efficient are still a mystery (and what pusher and technique are you comparing them to?).

No mystery ... devices and technique already explained in previous posts ... if you want some part of that clarified ... I'm not psychic ... you have to tell me what part of it you want clarified.

I've given evidence ... showed you the math ... I don't know what would convince you ... if anything ever could... you haven't pointed to any issues with the evidence or the logic or the math ... As such I have no way of knowing why you are not convinced.

And ... as I have corrected many many times ... not "always" as you again incorrectly put in here , when you describe my assertion ... not "Always" ... I do not understand why you keep trying to add that kind of absolute phrase to my assertion ... I keep correcting it ... that is NOT my claim.. never has been.

Originally Posted by P-hack

My insight tells me that the generator is ALWAYS going to be some fraction as efficient as the pusher in the right hands, except maybe for some fluke edge conditions, using today's technology anyway. It is a reasonable conclusion.

It's reasonable until the evidence and math show otherwise ... and I've presented evidence and math that show otherwise... evidence trumps Insight and/or intuition every time... even yours.

- - - - - -

Perhaps a graphical example will help some ... where words have failed... for the pusher and generator as previously described.

I've added some color to the ICE BSFC you listed.

Inside the Red area the Pusher is more efficient than the generator.

Between the Red and Blue area the Pusher is more efficient than the joules the generator has to cycle through the BEV traction battery ... and ... the Pusher is less efficient than the generator for the joules that do not have to get cycled through the BEV traction battery.

Outside the Blue the Pusher is less efficient than the generator.

My claim has consistently been that there are situations where this pusher / generator situation will either be better and/or more efficient for the pusher ... and other situations where it will be better and/or more efficient for the generator... which one is more efficient will depend on the situation.

And as has been written many many times ... a different situation will give different results ... and this can change ... there is no Ideal , there is no Always... be it the component situation , or the usage situation.

Because this discussion was about pusher vs generator in general , there will be different curves for different generators and for different pushers ... not all pushers will be equally good or bad in all situations ... and not all generators will be equally good or bad in all situation ... There is no ideal pusher that is always ( for all situation ) better than all other pushers , just like there is no ideal generator that is always ( for all situations ) better than all other generators.