Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist
Non-hybrid has a smaller engine than the hybrid, while both have turbos?! How does that make any sense?!
What size engine would you guys put in the hybrid?
|
Both are turbodiesel, it's not related to the current gassers downsizing trend. Well, the 1.6L one could be enought for the hybrid version too, and most likely to have a higher increasement in fuel savings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
If you want to do a complete life cycle vs complete life cycle ... or overhaul vs overhaul... OEM vs OEM ... or modified vs modified ... that would be better
|
It could be more accurate if the comparison was for the same criteria, but vehicles with different concepts might be compared at their differences to point out what are their respective advantages and disadvantages.
Quote:
|
Many parts of the industry were far worse in the past than they are today ... more energy per pound of steel in the past ... more pollution to make each pound of steel in the past ... more pollution for each kwh of energy in the past ...
|
In an overhaul, all the improvements in the overall efficiency for industrial processes wouldn't be disconsidered.
Quote:
|
more steel on the older heavier vehicle ... a vehicle that is less safe to drive ... that needs some maintenance items more often ... that is less aerodynamic
|
It all depends on which vehicle is going to be refurbished. I doubt that an old Volkswagen Rabbit might use more steel than a Prius. Safety is a valid concern, but it doesn't really belong to the "environmental performance" argument. Maintenance items are another point that is not so accurate, considering that some technical upgrades can be applied to an old beater if they really do require less maintenance.
Quote:
|
that has larger more toxic and energy costly engine ... and engine that produces vastly more toxins out of it's tail pipe per gallon ... and uses more gallons to travel the same number of miles... etc...etc.
|
Some engines with older layouts, actually, can be less energy-expensive to manufacture and overhaul than a newer one. Also, due to the absence of highly-sophisticated electronics into an older Diesel, for example, there will be no e-waste to handle if the engine gets trashed. I won't get into the argument about tail pipe emissions, since the aftertreatment improvements in newer vehicles sure have to be counted as a positive aspect. But the fuel consumption, again, is also related to other aspects, not just an engine's age.
Quote:
|
I just don't see a ~50lbs NiMH battery in some HEVs being a big enough hit to be able to counter all the other very large hits the other vehicle has added up over it's lifetime... especially when one tries to stretch it as far as a 7,700 lbs van vs a smaller lighter more aerodynamic , etc , etc ...
|
Considering the adaptability to alternative fuels, and old 7700lbs. GVWR van may still have some advantage over a Prius. Let's consider the Mercedes-Benz MB-180 D, fitted with a manual 5-speed transmission and the die-hard OM616 indirect-injection Diesel in a 79hp rating. Sure it's no speed-demon, but has a long lasting and good adaptability to biodiesel and even pure vegetable oil, including waste cooking oil, which wouldn't require major processings to be used as fuel, in opposition to the gasoline used in a Prius.
Sure its aerodynamics are far from outstanding, but taking into account the real-world MPG around mid-20s to low-30s and the ability to run on alternative fuels that can lead to a carbon-neutral balance they're far from a highly-polluting beast. Better than a hybrid 1/2-ton pickup (or SUV) with a gasser for sure, and can still fare decently compared to a hybrid gasser compact car while the cargo and passenger capacities and the ability to run on alternative fuels are taken into account.