[IamIan]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

In an overhaul, all the improvements in the overall efficiency for industrial processes wouldn't be disconsidered.

No ... but it does disconsider those improvements for the base vehicle.

As soon as you leave the overhaul vs overhaul ... and try to apply overhaul vs new ... then the only way those industrial improvements are not disconsidered ... is if the older more pollution intensive to produce vehicle is given ... all the penalties it has over it's life time ... for it's production which caused more pollution , life to date pile of dirtier exhaust , the penalty for the overhaul itself , etc.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

It all depends on which vehicle is going to be refurbished. I doubt that an old Volkswagen Rabbit might use more steel than a Prius.

The comparison was not to a small rabbit ... but a 7,700 lbs Van vs the Prius ... and 7,700 pounds is significantly more steel and other things.

And every 1 pound of the steel and other things cost more pollution than the same 1 pound did today with modern industry ... even if was the same amount of steel ... it polluted more to produce it.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Maintenance items are another point that is not so accurate, considering that some technical upgrades can be applied to an old beater if they really do require less maintenance.

Many old vehicles all had ~3,000 mile oil changes ... today 6,000 is not unheard of from OEM manuals ... that = less pollution ... and less maintenance.

Regenerative braking reduces the rate wear on friction brakes ... = less pollution ... and less maintenance.

etc... etc.

If you want to admit the inferiority of the maintenance of the older vehicle ... than fine invest the additional costs of both money and pollution in order to try and improve it , by making those upgrades to the beater ... but don't forget to include their environmental costs of doing those upgrades ... to the whole life time pile the vehicle is producing.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Some engines with older layouts, actually, can be less energy-expensive to manufacture and overhaul than a newer one.

And each 1 kwh of energy used to be more polluting than it is today ... ie the less energy may not result in less pollution.

Not all of the old engine layouts are less energy intensive to produce ... that is one of the advantages of a HEV ... the ICE can be down sized and the vehicle can keep the same overall performance ... 0-60 times etc... and for the ones that are more energy intensive to produce ... they get hit twice ... by the more kwh of energy ... and by the more pollution per kwh of energy.

In addition to energy efficiency benefits of modern industry vs the 'good old days' ... the old industry was also more polluting ... even completely separate from the energy use and cost itself ... long ago ... waste was just dumped over the hill ... can't do that any more today.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

I won't get into the argument about tail pipe emissions, since the aftertreatment improvements in newer vehicles sure have to be counted as a positive aspect.

and it creates a negative pile of dirty for every mile the older vehicle travels ... from the day it was new out of the factory.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

But the fuel consumption, again, is also related to other aspects, not just an engine's age.

I agree.

But that seems to trivialize the obvious ... history is pretty clear on this ... despite increasing vehicle weight over time ... which should be a net penalty ... and additional non-motive loads ( AC , GPS , etc ) ... which should also be another net penalty ... the over all average of MPG have been improving ... = over all on average modern is producing better fuel economy than the old did.

Which is exactly what we would expect from the improvements in technology.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Considering the adaptability to alternative fuels, and old 7700lbs. GVWR van may still have some advantage over a Prius.

See ... no small rabbit in sight ... now take all the other penalties that go with that 7,700 lbs van ... dirtier per pound steel ... more steel ... worse exhaust emissions every miles ... more gallons per mile ... etc... etc.

Also alternative fuels are not exclusive to the old out dated van that comes with it's life time pile of pollution.

And if you already opened up the can to allow overhauls and modifications ... the Prius can be modified to run on alternative fuels as well... and it would still produce less toxic emissions per gallon ... and use less gallons per mile.

Or do a PHEV Prius charged with Solar Energy ... your emissions drop even more.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Let's consider the Mercedes-Benz MB-180 D, fitted with a manual 5-speed transmission and the die-hard OM616 indirect-injection Diesel in a 79hp rating. Sure it's no speed-demon, but has a long lasting and good adaptability to biodiesel and even pure vegetable oil, including waste cooking oil, which wouldn't require major processings to be used as fuel, in opposition to the gasoline used in a Prius.

So you think a 79hp engine is a good comparison to a 134hp current Prius?
Why stack the deck so much ... compare apples to apples ... where's the nearly ~134 HP diesel to compare vs the ~134HP HEV?

And if you get the exhaust tested ... even on bio-diesel ... you are very likely to find that it is still more toxic / dirty per gallon ... and is using way more gallons per mile.

As for bio-fuels ... sure you can invest in adapting that gas guzziler ... and someone else can adapt and convert a more efficient vehicle like a prius to bio-fuels as well.

Or go OEM ... unlike that old van ... Toyota started selling a Bio-Fuel running Prius in Brazil in 2012 Link

Re-using waste is a good thing ... but is not limited to only be converted to bio-diesel ... nor is waste restaurant oil the only waste that can be converted to fuel.

If you wanted that waste oil to be as good as the gasoline at the pump ... it would not be a simple process at all ... for it to work equally to the gasoline at all temperatures , etc... and then their is the issue of availability of this waste to fuel ... by all means tell me how many gas stations offer it for sale across the country?

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Sure its aerodynamics are far from outstanding, but taking into account the real-world MPG around mid-20s to low-30s

mid-20s to low-30s ... needs 2x or 3x as many gallons to travel the same distance ... all the while you admit it will have worse tail pipe toxic emissions for every one of those gallons.

This puts it further into the whole every mile you drive it.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

and the ability to run on alternative fuels that can lead to a carbon-neutral balance they're far from a highly-polluting beast.

carbon-neutral does not = low pollution.

Put that tail pipe exhaust emissions on a test ... and it will be more toxic per gallon ... while consuming more gallons per mile.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Better than a hybrid 1/2-ton pickup (or SUV) with a gasser for sure,

I don't think so... and the pick up or SUV is a long way from the Prius is was claimed it was better than.

It starts off being more polluting when it was produced ... more pollution was produced every gallon it used ... it used more gallons per mile ... more pollution was produced to overhaul / convert it ... and even after the conversion it is still very likely to be producing more toxic exhaust emissions every mile it drives... it's not getting out of the hole at all ... it looks like all it did was slow down the rate of the pile of dirtier it was building.

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

and can still fare decently compared to a hybrid gasser compact car while the cargo and passenger capacities and the ability to run on alternative fuels are taken into account.

It doesn't fair decently vs the larger vehicles ... why would it / how would it be able to do better ... against smaller vehicles that will produce even less pollution?