[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

This is an open forum. If you feel anyone is so disrespectful as to prevent an honest inquiry into anything fuel efficiency related, flag that post. Use the triangle.

There is almost no value in the triangle when the WHOLE of the community is bagging on a thread. Look what happened on the soulcrusher vapor post. It is gone now, and it was a free-for-all on both sides. The WHOLE thread was deleted by the mods. So, what good value there was, and there was much good, is now gone.

Originally Posted by RedDevil

. . . I was deeply disappointed in the lack of basics that the HHO advocates display. The fact that it takes much more energy to generate HHO than burning it can ever give back is ignored by all, or waylayed by stating that even a tiny amount of HHO would improve the efficiency by a large amount, without any proof.
That a modern fuel injected engine typically burns its fuel almost completely, and that the low efficiency of a gas engine is mostly due to the adiabatic expansion in the power stroke, whether the mixture contains HHO or not, shows those claims exceed the technical limits, hence they can not be true.

I assure you, I understand the thermodynamics of combustion on a level much deeper than what you have outlined. That is the point. Just because you don't understand it, means you cannot just dismiss it. Let's take a deeper look and see what we have or not. I am not going to sell you a kit and I'm not claiming to double your mileage, I am saying there is a possibility that under the right conditions a small amount of HHO will accelerate the combustion process allowing less ignition lead time to be used. Does that make sense to you? Please Google the advantage of rapid combustion. You will find links to homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) which show thermal efficiencies exceeding 50%. The key is the rapid rate of combustion.

People get thermal efficiency mixed up with combustion efficiency. There is a difference. I agree that 98% of the gasoline is burned in a modern engine. That is combustion efficiency. So how does the HCCI engine exceed 50% thermal efficiency? It cannot burn more than 100% of the fuel so even at 100% burn efficiency, the 2% added fuel value would not cause the gap advantage the HCCI engines have over a very efficient gasoline engine such as Toyota's Atkinson engine used in the Prius which stand at 38% thermal efficiency at last report. Thermal efficiency is a measure of the fuel energy actually used to produce mechanical work. There are numerous parameters that contribute to this, including combustion rate. HHO can increase combustion rate and allow you to extract more work from your fuel burned. The mechanism it uses to do so is combustion seeding. A Google search will yield some difficult reading. Include ozone or O3 in the search as it is a forgotten part of the HHO question. Radicals and precursor radicals are as much a part of this science as stress/strain is to the mechanical engineer and ohms/amps are to the electrical engineer.

All I want is the opportunity to develop and answer some questions. In the Corral, this has been an impossibility.

Originally Posted by RedDevil

. . .
Your post is the first time I consciously read about plasma ignition. It might well be able to ignite more fuel than a spark plug, or faster, better controlled or whatever. I'll pass on that.

Are you familiar with high energy plasma ignition systems? They are in use by racers everywhere. You can buy them on Ebay among other places. They have been in development since Old Mechanic was a lad. I cannot link directly to the PDF file but if you go to academia.edu and search for "Variable Spark Lenght in Conventional Ignition System for ICE: Experimental Results. Ermanno RIVIEZZO", you can download the file after a simple log in. Academia.edu is only one of many places I go to for reading during my morning coffee. I know, I'm weird that way.

Originally Posted by RedDevil

. . . But you need proof.
All I see is words. Allegations, accusations, hints, but no facts, no controllable data.
T Vago presents his test results and you deny them. Why? Did he not test it right? How, then?
Do you expect anyone to believe what you write without proof while you deny the data of others?

Of course it is hard to find the truth.
I hardly take anything I read for true unless I really trust the knowledge and experience of the provider, and even then I like to know how that wisdom was derived.

When I read your posts I cannot verify your claims. I miss the information I need to prove or disprove it. All I get is bags of lines that circumvent the subject.

Getting emotional makes it worse.
I cannot escape the feeling that you are trying to take revenge on T Vago.
I don't like that. You lose my sympathy doing that, and my patience to sift through all your lengthy posts.

Now I can't blame you for making lengthy posts in a lenghty post
but I felt I had a lot to say and want to do it all and be done with it, so here goes.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. And no, I am less emotional about this than most. I just don't like bullies. The Unicorn Corral attracts bullies. T Vago was only chosen as an example. There are others out there I could have chosen. I respect his work. He has been part of this community for some time so I knew he wouldn't be so upset and just leave.

And, your ability to understand my posts does not make my posts any less truthful. I do not say this to be patronizing and egotistical. I cannot link to the years of education and experience ingrained in me. How do I link to the hardbound books in my possession? Please turn to Combustion, 4th Edition, p.264, Detonation Phenomena, By Glassman & Yetter. It is sitting right here. Right in front of me. Bought for me last Christmas by my wife to replace the 1st Edition that was falling to pieces.

You want proof? Give me time to gather and present my proof in a logical and coherent way. Some answers I already know, some I don't. That is all I am asking. And, I understand the requirements of the Sagan Test. Thus, making a few mods and driving around as Tvago and others do in the open forum will not be enough. I will have to build a dynamometer. What? You can do that? Yes, I have in the past and modern improvements make it much easier now. Just look up DIY Dyno's on YouTube. Goodness. You can learn so much from YouTube. Why should I get a graduate degree? I just need Google and YouTube!