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Old 03-13-2016, 07:18 AM   #11 (permalink)
RustyLugNut
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Your discussion shows you missed my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
Yes, so what?
My argument that the container outweighs the gas still stands, whether it is hypercompressed, hypercooled, bound with palladium or methane.
The energy density of hydrogen does not have to be equal to that of a tin container holding a few dozen liters of gasoline. It is competing against batteries. And with that in mind, it far exceeds battery energy density. It does not need to be hyper cooled/compressed. Metal hydride tanks can be purchases from industrial suppliers that hold 500 liters of hydrogen gas in a 5 Kg stainless steel bottle at 10-20 bar at standard temperatures. That is about the same energy found in about 15 Kg of lithium-ion batteries. In another thread, I mentioned complex hydrated plastic polymers that act as a recyclable carrier of hydrogen and it can be carried in hand at room temperatures and pressures. 5 Kg of the plastic far exceeds the energy found in many kilograms of the average lithium-ion battery. I use the example of natural gas pipelines as infrastructure that can be used to transport hydrogen gas long distances. If the "carrier methane gas" is from a biosphere source the substitution of an -OH for an H on a bonding sight gives you methanol which is even far more energy dense than Li-ion batteries.

Quote:
Natural gas pipelines are in use to transport natural gas. In Holland almost all houses are connected to the natural gas network.
The pipelines, shutters, controllers etc are designed to work with the gas composition from our giant well in Slochteren. Nowadays gas from other sources gets used too, which meant we needed vast adaptations to our network to keep it safe. Just closing a valve on a main transport line causes a violent bang as the flow of a vast amount of gas is suddenly stopped. So the shutters have a shock absorber to cushion the blow. A different composure of the gas means those need to be redesigned. And so do the sniffers that test for leakage, pumps, etc.

Our gas network could not be used for transporting hydrogen, not even if it were not in use for natural gas anymore, but definitely not within a few years.

If hydrogen becomes economically viable, then the infrastructure for it will be built up, either piece by piece or by a vast investment scheme. In fact it would be hard to stop it from happening. Until then, it won't. Nobody wants to lose money until it is certain the investment will pay back.
Hydrogen needs to be cheap or it won't be a thing.
The point of mixing natural gas and hydrogen gas is just this - the hydrogen can be carried with the methane with little to no change in the piping system. If the you didn't catch it, the hydrogen IS part of the methane. Your equipment will function the same.

And as far as price, hydrogen just needs to be cheap enough - cheap enough to beat Li-ion batteries in high density energy applications. This is enough of a market that companies have already started into it with solutions.

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