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Old 01-31-2020, 11:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
redpoint5
Human Environmentalist
 
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,396

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 24.19 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 26.68 mpg (US)

Chevy ZR-2 - '03 Chevrolet S10 ZR2
90 day: 17.14 mpg (US)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvatron1 View Post
... best case scenario that would have ran through 3 battery packs in its lifetime, adding $8k to the cost of ownership on batteries and the 3rd pack would have only lasted 50k miles before that car was totaled by a deer.
You don't know what you're talking about with regard to expectations from a battery. 3 batteries over 400k would average 133,000 miles per battery. There's plenty of examples of Prius batteries going 200-300k miles. In 400k miles, I'd expect to use 2 batteries; the original, and 1 replacement. The whole car would be used up after that and have no value. Basically all vehicles with 200k miles on them are worth $1k as long as they run. Cars with 400k miles are worth the scrapyard value.

I've already conceded that it probably doesn't make sense in smaller vehicles, but for some reason that is unclear to me, you seem to imply that no hybrids make sense either financially or environmentally.

Regarding the Camry and premium fuel, I bet it can run on regular, and I bet the manual states that as well. You generally just lose some top end performance and some insignificant efficiency due to timing being retarded. I've done a lot of experimenting with my Acura, which recommends premium, but can run on regular. I can measure no difference in fuel economy, and barely notice the difference in performance (though I can tell if my wife filled with premium or regular just on driving characteristics). The other thing you're ignoring is that engine compression can be increased when running higher octane fuel, which increases fuel economy. It isn't just $0.3 per gallon down the drain; it's a higher performing engine that gets better fuel economy.

Quote:
Hybrids Excel in smaller, aerodynamic vehicles. That's where the biggest mpg gains are seen. Hybrids make less cost effective sense in really big and heavy vehicles because they require much bigger batteries to move all that extra weight around, fight more drag are much less efficient & bigger batteries cost way more money & have a bigger environmental toll. You're paying for more battery while getting less efficiency.
You've got that exactly backwards. The Gen I Insight gets just about the same MPG with a completely disabled EV assist, running only on the ICE. That's because it's so lightweight that little is lost by braking.

Hybrids have a faster return on investment the larger the vehicle is, even if that means the battery and motor(s) have to be bigger. Recovering the kinetic energy of a 7,000 pound vehicle when it stops is way more important than recovering the energy from a 1,800 pound vehicle. Turning off a 6L engine instead of idling it is way more important than turning off a 1L engine. Downsizing the ICE engine in a large vehicle and supplementing the loss in power with a motor makes way more sense than in a small vehicle.

Your argument about larger vehicles being less efficient is obvious, but besides the point. As long as people buy them, they should be made as efficient as reasonable. It's a pointless debate, because we could always say that riding a scooter is more efficient, and that riding a bicycle is more efficient than that. Most people don't want that, so it's a pointless discussion.

Quote:
Many modern day EVs haven't even lasted more than 5 years, some as little as 2 years. That's not environmentally friendly, changing a battery pack every 2 years.
Show me 1 EV model that averages 2-5 years for the battery pack, then we can take you seriously. Again, I have no idea what your agenda is to bring up worst case catastrophic scenarios for hybrids and then pit them against best case 1-off stories of ICE vehicles going a million miles. Perhaps you can explicitly state what your agenda is so we aren't left to guess.

I expect plug-in hybrids to increase in popularity as a bridge to EVs. It combines the strengths of both technologies while minimizing the cost of the most expensive part; the battery. Not only that, but some like the RAV4 Prime qualify for the full $7,500 federal tax credit. It's going to cost less than the regular ICE version (after subsidies), while having way more power and fuel economy. The battery cost to manufacture will be less than $2,500, and provide enough range to accomplish 90% of the miles on electricity only. Electricity costs 1/3 as much as petrol per mile. That pencils out nicely both in the pocketbook and environmentally.
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