[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by Blister

Actually, that's a VERY unreasonable request since nowhere in this thread or any other thread did I ever say that. Hydrogen and oxygen are ALWAYS going to recombine into water... ALWAYS, which is PROOF of an inefficient burn if water vapor is a product. Reading posts is tricky sometimes. We mostly just want to see what we want to see and don't absorb the true content of what we read.

Here's an equation for you though:

H2 + FIRE (will never, ever, not in a million years) = H2.

That's FREE ENERGY and doesn't exist SO, if we say H2 + O + fire = H2O(water)... well, it's obviously BUNK and that's what some are saying.

Once again, I am stating *clearly*, whether the by product is helium or not, an efficient burn of H2, WILL NEVER PRODUCE H2 and since that's 2/3rds of the contents of water, you wont get water either.

Anyway, this should be common sense but it's doesn't seem to click with some. I'm officially outta here. ("here"= this thread), another neat equation.

Common Sense! Holy crap - we've found the problem (and you're clearly demonstrating my point). The concepts you are attempting to describe are not common sense - the reason you're coming off as a crackpot: you're trying to apply common sense.

You, as far as I can see, are the only one that has said anything about H2 making H2 If that's incorrect, someone please point that out... But that still doesn't make the helium argument correct nor the argument that an "efficient" burn does not result in water nor the claim that hydrogen and oxygen automatically combine (starter energy is required).

I mean your earlier post stated

The unspent (inefficiently burnt) hydrogen will automatically recombine with any surrounding oxygen making the water vapor.

Your explanations aren't even consistent either. You're above post just said something about fire (which is not an element by itself).

Once again, I am stating *clearly*, whether the by product is helium or not, an efficient burn of H2, WILL NEVER PRODUCE H2 and since that's 2/3rds of the contents of water, you wont get water either.

You're [very] sadly mistaken. 2H2 + O2 --> 2H2O - please read the link about balancing chemical equations. You DO NOT get additional hydrogen. The sum of H on the right of the equation is the same as the hydrogen on the left. Here's More chemistry concepts to read. This isn't common sense, so please stop trying to apply common sense to it.

So everyone's clear on balancing chemical reactions (so that someone doesn't visit this page 8 months from now and starts thinking Hydrogen might combust into Helium or that hydrogen and oxygen does not efficiently combust into water (stating clearly, it does).

2H2 + O2 --> 2H20

Checking for balance
Left side
2H2 = 4 hydrogen atoms
O2 = 2 oxygen atoms

Right side
2*H2 = 4 hydrogen atoms
2*O = 2 oxygen atoms

Apply basic algebra (we'll substitute letters for clarity)
4x+2y=2*(2x+y) --distribute the 2--> 4x+2y=4x+2y

No free energy, no extra hydrogen created, no common sense involved.


Both hydrogen and oxygen are diatomic (as are N2, F2, Cl2, Br2, and I2) which is why we don't (naturally) see a single hydrogen atom or a single oxygen atom when unbound (hence the 2H2 in the above equation) - that doesn't mean we can't see a single atom when bound

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For archival thuroughness (should the post be deleted resulting in misunderstanding of the root of this post)

This isn't exactly true. The only water vapor that would enter the the exhaust stream would be from inefficient hydrogen burn. Burnt hydrogen is helium and is not a component in water so an inefficient burn will be the only cause of water coming out of the exhaust. The unspent (inefficiently burnt) hydrogen will automatically recombine with any surrounding oxygen making the water vapor.

That's the basis of the hydrogen fuel cell. Reverse electrolysis (recombination of hydrogen and oxygen) creates a charge naturally and is used to power an electric motor, the only emission is water. So, insufficient combustion of hydrogen within the cylinder is the only reason that water would come out of the exhaust ports in an HHO system.

This is mainly what turned me away from digging further into hydrogen/hydroxy systems. Permanent magnet alternators can be introduced into the engine bay, running off of the same belts without regulators for higher production but the bottom line is that I would be using up the basic components of water while the planet currently seems to be having issues surrounding water. Anyway, I'm not what one would consider "green" but I do like efficiency. The more efficient these systems become and the burn becomes, it's stands to reason that the more water problems we will have.

It is amazing to me that sites like treehugger and other green sites endorse HHO for internal combustion. On a side note, I'm all for the home enthusiast building a system like this and building it well but mass production and legislation requiring this scares me a bit.