2013 Green Grand Prix - NY - Fri Apr 19
 

This excellent annual event is at Watkins Glen international Raceway (NASCAR) near Corning, NY. I received this from organizer Bob Gillespie:

The 2013 Green Grand Prix will be Friday April 19th. It will be 1 day instead of 2.

Rally Stage 1: We will be on the WGI short NASCAR track from about 9 A.M. - 12 noon. [Bruce notes: The Watkins Glen Intl short circuit is 2.45 miles, cars run dozens of laps.]

2 hour break.

Rally Stage 2; on public roads 2- 4 PM.

About 6 PM: Awards dinner at Glen Club which is on the infield of the WGI circuit.

Please feel free to forward this tentative schedule to anyone you think may be interested.

Happy New Year,

Bob

Further information will be posted here:
Welcome To The Official Green Grand Prix Web Site
(No details for 2013 are posted there yet.)

It'll be here before we know it!

I really like this event - but being a chronic complianypants I will say I think it happens too early in the season. And the weekday schedule kills it for a lot of working people (I understand Bob's focus is involving schools at varying levels, which rules out a solely weekend event).

Yes the Friday schedule isn't workable for all. But I think the Friday date makes the track available to the organizers at little or no cost.

Last year I was there for both Fri and Sat. You could see the track made some real money on Sat from the amateur driver events they ran. I don't think the Green Grand Prix is ready to draw enough attendees yet to generate that kind of $$ for the track. So I'm thankful I can use it on Friday.

Coming up Friday April, 19, 2013. On the track for the Green Grand Prix at Watkins Glen with my Honda CBR250R motorcycle for a fuel economy challenge. I'm trying to improve on 134.9 mpgUS from last year with some Vetter style aero modifications. See you there and again on Saturday for the excellent tech display in the paddock and the Electrathon competition. Bring the kids and show them how fun it is to be green.
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We have to hope for better weather this year as Saturday washed out the electrathons last year. It is also too bad the track prohibits refueling on the grounds. Trying to weigh a 3,000 pound car before and after accurately enough is a terrible way to determine fuel usage. Rounding the read outs of the scales to the whole pound made things even worse. A few cars made gas. I used 1 gallonUS of fuel according to an accurate tank fill including the climb up from town and back down, but was credited with 10 pounds of use. I would be in favor of moving the fill and refill down into town at the gas station as it is on Saturday. Which still has it's problems with fill error, fill to the first click, and thermal expansion, and the bladder tanks in the Prius make this completely irrelevant.
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I also think that most competitors in a fuel economy challenge would rather have a simple, out and around the lake on Saturday, than the complicated navigating, and multiple man hours of scoring, required for a traditional SCCA time/ distance rally. The SCCA needs to come up with different sanctioning rules for fuel economy events which will become more and more prevalent as people start to think green.

What's the elevation change like for both the road and track rally? Also what speeds are we talking about in each section?

Do they determine your category by Old, or New EPA mpg? Cause the old EPA is 56mpg combined, and new is 47mpg combined for the Automatic non-leanburn version of the Insight (Of which i will probably be the only entry). The reason i ask is the classes are 45-50mpg, then 51-65mpg. The second category consisting of P&G Lean burn monstrocities getting 95.1mpg!

Aero mods on a stock car, is that considered stock or modified?

It's hilly.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWscth4N2yg
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In the past the target speed for each track lap was 45 mph.

Elevations of low and high points of the "Short Course" at WGI: 1507', 1631'. The Short Course excludes the "Boot" section of WGI.
Net elevation change: 124'
The "Boot"section of the track is not used in this event. The Boot's minimum elevation is 1490' and would give a larger delta.

See elevation map here

The most impressive grade change on the track begins in the "Ninety" turn, which you enter after passing the grandstand. In the Ninety, the track begins a quick drop from 1545' to 1507'. The first curve of "The Esses" is located at the bottom of that drop. I enjoy that section of the track every time I pass through. :D

1)
I believe that in past years, the GGP has changed the class bracketing cutoffs as needed to respond to the field of vehicles entered. You may find new classes created, or classes dropped if no entrants compete. Of course it's nice to be assigned to a lower class, and then excel. My perception has been that classing at the GGP is done with an eye towards having vehicles of roughly similar basic capabilities competing against each other. Seems reasonable to me.

2)
Based on the GGP competition classes I've been assigned to in past years, I believe they are using the current EPA numbers for all entries. This puts all EPA-based entries on a fairly even playing field, as the currently posted EPA numbers for older cars have been adjusted by the EPA to show what the cars likely would be rated if tested and scored by the current methods. No rating method is perfect but I'll credit both the EPA and the GGP for making efforts to use apples-to-apples comparisons.

In past years, the GGP has asked only whether your vehicle is modified or not.

Just recently I sent organizer Bob Gillespie some suggestions on how to more precisely define the line between modified and not modified. I'm sure it would still be based on whatever the entrant checks on the form because the GGP's volunteer staff is busy enough just verifying that all lights work and the vehicle has been fueled. But some stated guidelines on the form would be a real help.

I would think that any feature originally built into the car would not be a mod. Improvements added later, um, I would think they would be a mod.

Eventually the GGP could also start making finer distinctions such as:
If you restore a lost oem belly pan by building a coroplast one, is it a mod? Maybe not.
If a car has only one (or two??) minor mods, maybe it would not be classed as modded? That could be reasonable if other modded cars in the class had much more extensive mods, such as a performance gasser engine replaced with an econobox small diesel. Or gassers replaced with a battery bank and an electric motor.

Thanks! It sounds like the net of elevation change of 124' is way below the monster hills where i live. I expect the + and - gradients are shallow? I have a good idea now of what i can realistically accomplish without Lean Burn or P&G. In addition, i have some "plans" in the works that i won't divulge until the competition. Just to make it pressure free in case i fail, this being my first time aeromodding.

That said, expect some competition on the field this year! Any other Ecomodders going this year? Metrompg, the owners of this site, our friends north of the border?

Also i'm looking to split a room with anyone Thursday and Saturday night. I'll sleep on an airbed, and pay my fair share. Otherwise i probably will just sleep in the car.

See the link to the track elevation map that I added to post #8 above.

GGP 2013 Registration Form is on line
 

Registration form:
Green Grand Prix Registration Form

This year's schedule on GGP site:
Green Grand Prix 2013 Schedule

Green Grand Prix home page:
Green Grand Prix

Both fuel economy challenges are on Friday with a paid dinner that evening. When is the Electrathon race?

Bob's email said:
"A NY Electrathon race is being planned for the paddock parking lot."

Since he didn't say anything about another date for the Electrathon, I assume it's the same day.

I recall the NY Electrathon being run in GGP parking lots in the past. Not sure if this is the same lot as last year... But obviously its somewhere on the Watkins Glen grounds.

Just giving you guys fair warning that i will attend, but there is a chance i might not compete. I fully plan on completing all my mods by then to compete, and i have it all scheduled out. But in such a short time frame there is a chance i might not finish. I was working on the project today and realized it's a lot of work to do!

Still, i'm shooting to have it all done by a strict time frame. Wish me luck!

The GGP FE competition didn't look very fun at all last year, partially due to it basically still being winter in the middle of april. I'm glad the event is around, but if I'm gonna make the hike out there, I'd rather have the competition be a bit more fierce and the measurements more meticulous. I'm willing meet up informally on May 18th or so and do the same run around seneca lake the GGP used to do - maybe even make it longer by going up seneca lake and down cayuga lake. I also like the idea of a bunch of the same cars doing it, like test driving a bunch of yaris or something, or an all-insight FE run (everyone seems to be getting a gen1 insight now, eh?)

Hike? From Binghamton? It's less than an hour.

Well, just forget I said hike. I guess I was trying to appeal to the hike others like MetroMPG would make. I don't typically find myself in WG otherwise, and don't drive much anymore. I try to avoid driving (best way to save fuel), so if I'm going to drive (especially to an opportunity to drive more for the sake of consuming fuel), I figure it better at least be fun. I equate fun with (friendly) competitiveness here because if it weren't somewhat competitive, it'd be a leisurely drive around the lake, for which I couldn't ever foresee needing accompaniment from a bunch of dudes from the internet. Based on the margin of error afforded by recent GGPs, I equate it with leisurely driving. I'm not against using fuel to meet up somewhere with ecomodders, but if we're going to drive around to compare fuel economy, I don't think the margin of error in the measurement method shouldn't be big enough to make or break someone's applied driving skills. (At least they're making the course longer to try to close that margin)

I'm going to ask for the day off from work so I can attend to spectate. I am particularly interested in the electrathon competition.

Looks like i'll be spectating as well, it's just been way too cold to be working outside at all. Plus it's been snowing every week. Better to invest the $100 fee into boat tail money for next year. I guess i should start a thread for my car. I have a couple different ideas for an 80% boat tail i'll sketch up.

Would a meetup in the Tri-state area be in order? I see a lot of people are from the eastern NY area.

EDIT: just saw this years winner will get a $1,000 grand prize.

$100 entry fee is getting a bit steep especially for me as I am entered as a solo motorcycle and won't be bringing a guest for dinner. The accuracy of the fuel fill is pretty good at the the pump for the over the road rally. The scales, not so much.

Though I've thoroughly enjoyed driving in the GGP it looks like I might have to skip it this year. I'm scheduled for some surgery on my clutch foot and the Dr. says I likely won't be able to put any weight on it till after the GGP.

And yes the fuel measurement issues at GGP still remain. Cars with "factory" mpg computers are allowed to use them to determine their score but otherwise it's scales to weigh car for the track portion and a pump fill for the road rally.

I've convinced the GGP that my VERY carefully calibrated MPGuino is at least as accurate as a factory built in computer so I've been using it for scoring. Of course carb'ed vehicles and old school diesels don't easily have that option.

There is a required fill up before the on track event (7:00 AM Ugh!) so it looks like they have decided against using the scales to weigh the fuel use.
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7:00- 7:30AM Fill up (Valero on Rte. 14)
7:15- 8:15 AM Registration (WGI Tech Garage)
8:30- 8:45 A.M Drivers meeting (WGI Tech Garage)
9 A.M.-12 noon Rally Stage 1 : (WGI Short Course)
12:15- 1:30 P.M. Lunch and display (WGI Tech Garage )
1:00 PM Rally school (WGI Tech Garage.)
1::20- 1:50 PM Refueling (Valero station)
2-4PM Rally Stage 2 Glen Motor Inn , then public roads)
5 PM Awards dinner (Glen Club)

sendler,

Don't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure they had the same mandatory fillup for everyone last year too. I remember doing it and I track gallons on the MPGuino. I've been trading emails with Bob G and haven't heard anything about any new approach to measuring fuel consumption.

I didn't do any mandatory fill before the track session last year. Only before and after the over the road session. I did my own tank fills for the track event though.

I might be interested in an informal MPG run. I'll be at the GGP as a spectator.

I'd be interested in an informal/classic GGP run. I really enjoyed that it was basically just a cruise around the lake, with a great view. The racetrack would be cool, but at the same time, takes some of the enjoyment out of it, and takes away from getting great mileage in real world conditions. Plus we could do it on a weekend, which is a lot easier for me to take off for. I'm down if it happens.

I'm liking the idea of this informal weekend meet myself.

Definitely interested. Need some time for my foot to heal.

i also need to do some work on the HX. Belly pan was completely destroyed by the Jan 8 snowstorm. And something is up with the rear (drum) brakes AGAIN. What is it with those things anyway??

Bottom line:
I'd love to drive with you guys but I can't delay any suggested date on my account. If foot and Civic are roadworthy when this happens I'm in. Foot should only need a few weeks I think but the other stuff, who knows?

This informal event needs its own thread.

It looks like I'll be riding over in 45F in the morning with 65 and thunderstorms in the afternoon.

Video or death!

Who's going to be there and who has entered? I'll be arriving late morning and I have to leave around 2 PM.

I have to admit, April weather usually impacts this event or the trips to and from on the days before and after.

Last year it rained on Day 2 for the GGP lake-loop rally run. A Corvette group had track priveges that day and at least one of them spun out on the WGI track. The year before, my brother (my navigator) and I both left promptly after the awards ceremony to avoid driving in an approaching heavy rain storm.

Sorry. No video cam yet.

It looks like I will have to ride the PCX150 this year. My CBR250R is in the middle of aero mods and I didn't get it done. The PCX is just as fun to ride and should still get about 110 mpgUS at 45 mph on the track.

Scott,

Wishing you the best of luck for the GGP. Last year I was doing repairs to the belly pan in the hotel parking lot the night before the track event.

I'll miss seeing you and the other ecomodders there this year. My toe was "modded" in surgery and I'm not even walking yet.

Much fun, Very tired! Good stuff, much to tell. Going to sleep now...

Hey Scott, i left a VLC poster with Bob Gilespie for you. I hope he remembered to give it to you.

Bob didn't give me anything. He didn't even announce any of the fuel economy results at the banquet even though he had a team feverishly adding up the points to determine which vehicle went around the track at exactly 45 mph and stopped in the pit for exactly five minutes three times.
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That is a competition?
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He comes from a Time/ Speed/ Distance rally background and unfortunately finds me and my motorcycle to be a bother. Even though I beat every other vehicle there on fuel economy by a wide margin. So there was no way he was going to announce that and make a big deal out of me. If I had known they weren't working on the fuel consumption data, I would have volunteered to divide it up myself. It takes a team of skilled workers 30 man hours to compute all the scores from the TSD rallys, it would have taken me 15 minutes to figure all of the fuel data.
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I got 124 mpgUS on the track. Down 10 from last year due to the violent head wind on the back straight. The Alfred State competition Insight got 62 on the computer. All of the cars were way down. The guy with the Heinkel doesn't dare to drive it anymore because it is worth $100,000 to a collector. The DIY Tadpole diesel chickened out also.
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The road course was really fun and even included a stretch of unpaved dirt. Great roads they chose. Lots of slamming on the brakes though as it was a challenging rally. Many of the competitors made wrong turns several times including the team I was following. I wonder how long it will be before the SCCA, which is the only way to get an event like this insured, acknowledges fuel economy and develops a formula for sanctioned competition that is free from the TSD complexity and man power issues. I think that if the Green Grand Prix organizers offered a choice to just use a map instead of the purposely tricky turn by turn TSD directions of the same roads, many of the competitors would rather do that.
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I did 109 mpgUS over the road which may indicate a slight over fill after the track. I expected my track numbers to match the 134 I got last year. I would like to know my average speed on the track. I think most of us end up averaging a little faster than 45 mph.
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The plug in hybrid modders are brainwashed. If you ask them how they did, they want to mention only the fuel used and claim a huge victory. 220 miles for the day on 1.2 gallons of gas. What about the $5.00 of electricity you just stole out of the wall twice without paying for it?
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Aside from the wind, the weather was nice right up until the last car was refilled. The electrathons even got their race in. Then the skies open up as we had dinner, turning the grass parking lot into 4 inches of mud. One Insight got buried up to the axles and had to get drug out by the tractor. Very fun day. It will be interesting to see where the future of the event goes as more competitors, including the two Alfred State (they brought 5 cars) drivers that got lost, bring pressure to abandon the TSD format.

A few pics.
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https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...04720046_n.jpg
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Troy rode his e bike 70 miles from Rochester and camped.
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Scott,

Thanks for posting the pics.

Very sorry to learn of the lack of any scores for fuel economy. Were many others visibly disappointed? I certainly would have been.

Did Bob say anything t soften the blow? Did he apologize to the assembled dinner crowd or promised o post full results soon on the GGP "site"?

I'll weigh in on the event later tonight. I got some good pictures but it'll be a few days till i can upload them.

I think we should have our own event this year. The eastern part of New York in the Tri-state area would be a good place. More centrally located to ecomodders. I know of 3 Insighters in the Hudson valley area personally, and several more in my area i could try to coax into attending (not counting the ones i don't personally know). Theyre from Insightcentral.com, which could give the event a better turnout.