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botsapper 01-29-2018 06:21 PM

220 kW/800v 250 mile range in 20 minutes
 
Porsche Mission E developed around a new 220 kW/800v electrical system will have capabilities to charge them with 250 miles in 20 minutes. Uwe Michaels, the head of Porsche's electrics and electronics development division details about the company's thinking and the future car's features; Level 5 autonomy features, become 800-volt international standard, fast 'Turbo Charging' system, high-voltage charging stations with built-in battery storage, intelligent routing with the network's charging stations, and partnerships with battery-cell suppliers LG Chem and Panasonic to develop customized cells and battery packs.

https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/tota...00579151_l.jpg

Porsche targeting sub-20 minute 249 mile recharge time for all-electric Mission E | Auto Express

redpoint5 01-29-2018 07:08 PM

The problem is that isn't very fast, despite the insane specs. It still needs to be 2-4x faster. Current CCS chargers are typically 500v/100A, or 500v/125A, which is a fraction of what they are talking about here (800v/275A) to achieve the 220 kW output target.

Current chargers aren't even capable of charging a Bolt at maximum rated speed. Then around the 50% SOC mark the charge rate tapers off.

Who is going to build this monster charging infrastructure? Even if you can find enough sites to locate these chargers, how much will it cost per kWh? Commercial rate schedules have a demand charge, which is expensive and is based on the maximum output capacity. Put a few of these chargers in 1 location, and you're paying a demand charge for over 1 megawatt of output.

Consider me a skeptic of EVs being great for long distance travel anytime within the next decade. Battery chemistry just isn't at a point where it can be recharged quickly enough, while retaining longevity and high storage density. Even if that hurdle is overcome and costs come down, the infrastructure isn't designed for these monster chargers. Even if that hurdle is overcome, it will cost too much to charge compared to buying a few gallons of petrol.

ksa8907 01-29-2018 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 560069)
The problem is that isn't very fast, despite the insane specs. It still needs to be 2-4x faster. Current CCS chargers are typically 500v/100A, or 500v/125A, which is a fraction of what they are talking about here (800v/275A) to achieve the 220 kW output target.

Current chargers aren't even capable of charging a Bolt at maximum rated speed. Then around the 50% SOC mark the charge rate tapers off.

Who is going to build this monster charging infrastructure? Even if you can find enough sites to locate these chargers, how much will it cost per kWh? Commercial rate schedules have a demand charge, which is expensive and is based on the maximum output capacity. Put a few of these chargers in 1 location, and you're paying a demand charge for over 1 megawatt of output.

Consider me a skeptic of EVs being great for long distance travel anytime within the next decade. Battery chemistry just isn't at a point where it can be recharged quickly enough, while retaining longevity and high storage density. Even if that hurdle is overcome and costs come down, the infrastructure isn't designed for these monster chargers. Even if that hurdle is overcome, it will cost too much to charge compared to buying a few gallons of petrol.

Natural Gas generators? Just an idea, or large capacitor/battery banks that would transfer the power and charge over time.

Maybe the high cost would just incentivise people to "slow" charge when the vehicle is sitting idle at home and only pay the higher cost when they need to travel long distances.

You're right though, dedicated EV for normal long distance travel or OTR trucking is still quite a ways off without a breakthrough battery technology, which then these systems could be in place in anticipation.

redpoint5 01-29-2018 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksa8907 (Post 560073)
Natural Gas generators? Just an idea, or large capacitor/battery banks that would transfer the power and charge over time.

Maybe the high cost would just incentivise people to "slow" charge when the vehicle is sitting idle at home and only pay the higher cost when they need to travel long distances.

You're right though, dedicated EV for normal long distance travel or OTR trucking is still quite a ways off without a breakthrough battery technology, which then these systems could be in place in anticipation.

All of those solutions underscore the difficulty of this problem. EVs are wonderful for local trips; even long local trips now that the Bolt has 250 miles of range. Slow charging at home is cheap and convenient in this case.

The problem is people want the vehicle to be convenient on long distance trips, and charging while traveling sucks. A gas generator defeats the purpose of an EV as you might as well have just brought along a gas powered car. Converting fuel into electricity by burning it has conversion losses. The only solution I can envision is a massive battery that is used to then charge the EV batteries, but that's expensive and wasteful, and may not even alleviate the problem of supplying such a large amount of power in a short amount of time if many people use the chargers and over-run the capacity. It would need to be used frequently to offset the cost, too.

That's the other problem; that chargers need to be used frequently to cover the cost of building them, but people don't use them often because most trips are local. If demand for the chargers is too high, people are waiting around for a charger to become available. If demand isn't high enough, it isn't profitable to install in the first place.

We're back to where I started, that charging either takes too long, or costs too much, and usually both.

oil pan 4 01-29-2018 09:50 PM

Really going to need natural gas turbine peaker plants.

JSH 01-29-2018 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 560069)
Consider me a skeptic of EVs being great for long distance travel anytime within the next decade.

I'm a skeptic too but personally I see no reason for fast charging. EVs are fantastic for driving around town. For trips we take the wife's car. A large portion of the population could do the same which means EV's don't need to be good at road tripping to gain market share.

It is about using the right tool for the job.

redpoint5 01-29-2018 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSH (Post 560085)
I'm a skeptic too but personally I see no reason for fast charging. EVs are fantastic for driving around town. For trips we take the wife's car. A large portion of the population could do the same which means EV's don't need to be good at road tripping to gain market share.

It is about using the right tool for the job.

That's what I've been saying, but consumers are not willing to own a vehicle that only is suitable for 97% of their trips, despite the fact that it's easy to find a gasser for longer trips.

For some reason consumers think that if it's technically possible to drive an EV across the country, they must do that instead of drive something else.

ksa8907 01-30-2018 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 560093)
That's what I've been saying, but consumers are not willing to own a vehicle that only is suitable for 97% of their trips, despite the fact that it's easy to find a gasser for longer trips.

For some reason consumers think that if it's technically possible to drive an EV across the country, they must do that instead of drive something else.

I believe if/when gas is roughly the same cost as it is and has been in the rest of the world, opinions will change. I have a hard time believing that will happen, but we are seeing hybrid pickup trucks, which in my mind is a huge indicator.

JSH 01-30-2018 01:07 PM

I believe things will change as more people get to ride in or drive an EV. EVs just have a better driving experience. Combined with greatly reduced operations expenses more people will be willing to purchase one for a least a second car.

I see 48v system are being driven by a few things.

1. It is a cheap way to meet increasing fuel economy standards
2. They make packaging easier. (You don’t need belt driven accessories hanging off the front of the engine.
3. The extra power is needed for the safety systems that are rapidly becoming standard. For example, it is much easier to do lane assist with electric power steering.

redpoint5 01-30-2018 01:31 PM

Electric power steering isn\'t unique to BEVs, neither is electric water pumps, electric heat pumps, or electric brake boosters. The Gen III Prius is entirely beltless.

EVs have a lot going for them:

Performance
Convenience of "refueling" at home
Generally lower "fuel" cost
Lower maintenance costs
Lower pollution
*Eventually cost of purchase

These advantages will need to outweigh the drawback of limited range and slow charging for consumers to be interested in them. Once the purchase price can beat ICE purchase prices, people will adopt them more. They will still suck at longer trips though. I\'d be willing to plan an EV trip and wait at chargers though if gasoline were crazy expensive and DCFC electricity was cheap, but as it is, just the opposite is true.


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