Best way to build a hybrid truck?
 

I really, really want a 1/2 ton plug-in hybrid pickup truck. First, I want all the engine accessories to be electric. No alternator, just a battery pack. Relatively simple to accomplish.

Second, I want the front wheels to be electrified. It doesn't need to go very fast, just for creeping along in traffic, parking lots, drive thrus, etc with the engine off. It could also provide regenerative braking at higher speeds.

If I start with a generic 1/2 ton 4WD truck (I'm not naming a brand on purpose) what would be the best way to try and accomplish this? I would like to get rid of the transfer case but keep the front axle.

What size motor would I need to do such a thing? Could I do something as simple as attaching a ~10hp electric motor to the front driveshaft, or directly on the differential? I'm not really sure how much power I would need, or what options are out there. I would prefer to keep the whole thing running on 48v if I can...

Thoughts?

Welcome to Ecomodder. Jumping right into the deep end of the pool?

Consider the ways to your goal.

• A mild hybrid would have an altermotor on the internal combustion engine. Easiest but no creeping around parking lots.
• A conventional hybrid would put an electric motor in the drivetrain. Prius and Chevy trucks integrate into the transmission. Aftermarket units replace a tailshaft.
• Replacing a transfer case with an electric motor creates a through-the-road hybrid with two separated powertrains.

Bolting a motor directly to a solid axle would be sub-optimal.

Have you looked around here much? Here's the altermotor: ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/controller-mods-build-e-assist-altermotor-35003.html. 15-20 horsespower at 55 to 72 Volts.

And here's an electric axle: ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/hot-rodding-toyota-mgr-29878.html. 98 pounds and 68 horsepowers.

I actually have a Lexus axle, but it wants higher voltages, maybe 400V.

The actual build process would start with a scoping statement and use case.

This is something I have been thinking about for a very long time. Technology is changing so fast it's kind of hard to keep up. Much of it is for convenience and reliability as much as it is for gas mileage. I want to be able to "idle" with the engine off. By that I mean heating or A/C, lighting, or creeping forward. I don't want any belt system on the engine, and it would be useful to be able to run electric water pump and fan with the engine off, or maybe a block heater depending on weather.

There will be an additional gas powered DC generator in the 3-4kw range installed in a toolbox in the bed. Obviously a battery pack, not huge, hopefully around 10kw, and it will also have a 10kw power inverter so it can be used as a mobile generator. With that I can also power 120v accessories like a block heater or air conditioning.

What kind of motors are available that mount to the trans tailshaft? If I did something like that I could simply use a lighter 2WD truck right? (I don't need to go off road) I will likely be using a 4L80E for a trans unless I decide I want more gears. I know GM did it like that but I figured they are kind of rare and hard to find parts, but maybe I'm wrong.

Basically I am building a "new" 20-ish year old truck because I absolutely hate all the new stuff. Maybe it would be easier to just get the factory GM hybrid and make it as nice as I can, but probably not easy to find. I do not want something that has rare and hard to replace components.

When I think of a 1/2-ton truck, it's usually a bobber*.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/member-f...604-images.jpg

Have you considered a pure EV? Once you factor in air conditioning** and vehicle-to-grid, the battery requirement is way North of 10kW.

First two results at duckduckgo.com/?q=electric+motor+replace+transmission+tailshaft

What would you think of a Rabbit or Dodge Rampage front-wheel drive pickup with the altermotor, and a pure EV conversion under the bed? Sorta you like hybrids so you put an hybrid in your hybrid so you could hybridize while your hybrizating?

And an aerocap that opens into a solar collector.

* ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/1946-chevy-prius-truck

** ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/electric-ac-compressor

I would love a totally electric pickup but I think right now the parts are just too expensive and I don't want a giant battery bank. The engine will be a 400-ish HP GDI V8, built with efficiency in mind...not going to win any awards for MPG but it shouldn't be bad if driven carefully. (Cutting out almost all idling would definitely help that)

It will be a single cab short bed, so it only weighs about 3700lbs in stock form. I really don't need a big electric motor, I don't see using it over about 10mph.

funkhoss got his station wagon to 46 50 MPG. Check the drivetrain section of the first post: ecomodder.com: 94 Caprice Wagon project--now 50.55 MPG with "3/4 ton" drivetrain/suspension

Fords $35,000 F150 Lighting is likely a better option
Also from Ford is the $20000 40mpg Maverick pickup

Trying to convert an existing truck will be
Very Expensive
Very unfortunate and hill billied
Or both

The only working plug in Hybrid truck that is somewhat available is from GM and it’s partners but you have to find a used one

Ben made a hybrid truck from an s10 with a Mercedes diesel 5mt + a separate dc series double shaft motor to run the rear axle electrically for a short distance

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...uck-22080.html

The workable DIY method of making a Chevy Volt pickup would be to convert a rolled Volt into a truck similar to this

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...uck-34935.html

There really are no inexpensive or “good ways” of diy Hybrid without re-using a full OEM solution

$35K is a pretty high bar.

Any VW, Jeep, Audi, Subaru or Dodge hybrid could become a ute: www.smythkitcars.com/

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b...w%20plaid.webp

AFAIK the only parts supplier trying to develop a 48-volt full-hybrid setup is Valeo, but it's more focused on light-duty vehicles.

Bull****. I've explained some things very clearly but let me be more blunt:
1. I am building a nice, expensive American pickup truck. I am not driving an embarrassing MPG mobile. Nor a wagon, or whatever other ridiculous stupid thing you dig up.

2. I've explained I absolutely do not want anything new. If you gave me a brand new truck, and paid the taxes for me, I would sell it and buy an old one.

3. I never said I wanted a full hybrid. The "mild hybrid" part is really easy. Electric fans/water pumps/AC is child's play in 2021. I can literally buy all this stuff straight out of a Summit catalog and it's designed to bolt up to my engine. And it cost almost nothing.

4. As far as movement is concerned, I want less than 10mph. That is not a big ask. There are many different ways this could be accomplished, I was simply curious if anybody else had done it. Obviously that takes very little HP, and thus, 48v would be absolutely fine. Maybe even 24.

5. I already explained I do not care about gas mileage. I want a truck that is functionally superior, I couldn't care less how much gas it uses. In fact, it will be getting a 100 gallon tank. Again, as I already said, this truck will be a mobile generator, and has features that are nicer than you will find in something from the factory. There are other reasons for hybridization beyond saving a few cents worth of gas.

6. I'm not poor. I could go to the dealership and take any car they have. Again, I have not seen any current models I want anything to do with. Thus, I make the car I want. Not my first rodeo.

I'm sure this conversation is over (to be fair it never started) so I won't bother checking this any further.

I pointed to the drivetrain section of funkhoss' thread. Mention of the Summit catalog suggests where you're coming from.
Something happened between post #5 and #10. No great loss, but I was waiting to find out if it would be a[n airbagged] C-10 cab.

Traction motor:
Motor size would depend on gear ratio and desired speed and acceleration. For creeping long in traffic you could possibly get by with a 10hp motor connected to the front drive axle. But you'd either need a way to disconnect it when going faster than a crawl or a bigger motor.

The thing is that in order to get enough torque you'd need to gear the 10hp motor down. But if it's constantly connected you would over-rev it and blow it up when going a faster speed. So you need a clutch to disconnect it. Of course if you use a clutch and disconnect it at higher speeds you wouldn't have any regenerative braking. So you need a motor that will rev up high enough and that's powerful enough so that the gearing (in the differential for an example) won't make it have so little torque it won't move the vehicle.

Motor type is also important. Series wound motors can have very high torque at low speeds and not have to be very powerful over all to do so. But it is very difficult (just consider it impossible unless you're an expert) to do regen in a series motor.

Accessories
Of course, for your accessories to be powered by electricity you'd need an electric motor that turns the accessories. But it would either have to match the voltage of the main motor, or you'd need separate batteries, one for the main plug-in hybrid, and one for the electric accesories.

If done right you wouldn't need an alternator (use the high voltage traction battery to power a DC to DC converter to charge the 12V system). So you could remove the alternator and put in place an electric motor that runs off the high voltage traction battery and route the accesory belt so it dpesn't connect to the crank pulley (or put a free wheeling pulley on the end of the crankshaft). That way it could run your A/C, power steering and water pump.

To make it even more efficient you'd hook up an electric motor to each of those separately, one for the A/C, one for the power steering and one for the water pump. That way, you only get power steering when you need power steering, or pump water only when you need to pump water to cool the enigne or heat the cabin, etc. Of course then you'd have to re-plumb things like the A/C compressor which needs high pressure tubing.

Question: What is the DC generator for?
My immediate thoughts (no offense) is that if you have regen and you already have a gasoline (or diesel?) engine you already have a way of charging the high voltage traction battery. If you're worried about running out of electricity and hurting your HV traction battery at a stop you could also put a generator on the engine and just start up and drive normally under gasoline (or diesel?) power. The generator would add more weight and could possibly be less efficient than the engine you already got.

Heating with the engine off (unless you just drove and are using residual engine heat for a short time) will use a lot of electricity, especially with the HV battery suffering the effects of the cold. One thing that can help is installing (if you don't have it already) and using heated seats. It's much more efficient to heat your body directly than the whole cabin. Of course that doesn't do much to defog the windshield.

A "10kW" battery is a measure of power. I'm not sure that would be enough power, even with a 10hp motor. Once you factor in some 3-5kW of heating the cabin or some 3kW to run the A/C you'd not have very much power left over, especially in the winter.

Maybe you meant "10kWh", a measure of energy. That sounds reasonable.

What motor? Well, this is where you kind of are on your own, because this kind of thing isn't done very often (you may be the first to do such a conversion, at least on the model of truck you're looking at). I'd suggest researching EV conversion stores. You'd need a custom made adapter to connect it to your drive shaft. So you'd need to higher a machine shop.

Most everything else can be done with off-the shelf parts. Battery cells, connected together with bus bars, cables, battery management system and motor controllers are all common off, the shelf parts. Remember to look for motors and motor controllers that have the same voltage ratings (that can handle the voltages of your battery) if you're hooking up motors for your accesories too.

I suppose you already know the basics of electricity. Each cell has an aceptable voltage range (e.g. 2.5-4.0V) and amount of current (e.g. 20A) If you add another cell in series you add the voltage (5-8V) but if you connect it in parallel you add the current (40A). Then multiply the voltage by the current and you get the wattage (6.5V x 40A = 260W) And ever 1000 watts or 1kW is equal to about 1.34hp. How long it will run at a certain power depends on the energy measured in watt-hours or kilowatt-hours.

Hey! Nobody's forcing you to do anything. Nor can we read your mind and understand all of your goals here. I don't even know what exactly you mean by "functionally superior...

I do see problems using an automatic transmission. You don't want to just pop it in neutral and shut off the engine and use the EV motor to move the truck. You would soon ruin your transmission because it would be turning without any lubrication (pump would be off). You'd need to either install an electric hydraulic pump or have a way (transfer case?) of disconnecting it completely. Or go the stick shift route.

There are double ended shaft motors. One that comes to mind is the Warp 9 Motor 32.2HP. But it's series wound (no regen) and you'd have to make your own adapters to connect it to your transmission and driveshaft.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that a chain drive from the motor to a sprocket welded to the U joint on the transmission output shaft would be the easiest route. Then, as long as you have room, you could just put a sprocket on any electric motor you so desire and weld up some brackets to hold it in place.

But again, if you want a little 48hp motor you'd have to use a very small sprocket on the motor and a very large one on the drive shaft to give it enough torque (geared down) to move the truck. But then it would explode from over-revving at higher speeds unless you have a way of disconnecting the motor from the driveshaft.

Maybe meet in the middle with something like this: https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/mars-0913/
It's got 30kW peak power at 96V and could power your truck at low speeds while being geared to the drive line high enough so as not to over-rev and explode at higher speeds. It could also regen for you at higher speeds.

On the other hand I did see this motor, also a Warp 9, with a u-joint output shaft: https://www.electriccarpartscompany....-9-ev-dc-motor This motor could possibly be mounted in place of the transfer case to the front axle with less modification than any other motor that I know of. It is also double ended so if you did have a machinist make an adapter you could mount it on a 2WD truck to the transmission and connect your drive shaft to it.

Wow.

And it is possible to regen a series wound motor: switching the field out of circuit and exciting it with low control voltage but that technically makes it a sepex. My kostov does it with the interpoles until the field current dies, maybe a couple of hundred yards on the freeway but not a lot of watts.

Not to worry, the initial irritation has gone.

The numerically highest gear set I know of for a front axle is approximately 6:1. With a series wound DC motor it should work, but you are looking at more like 30hp and up. But all the good motors are at least 98v and up.

1. You asked a question on an internet forum from a position of obvious ignorance. There are those that want to steer you away from an absurdly expensive underperforming solution. They will voice their opinion. You shouldn't react like a child throwing a titty fit. You should consider if you have the temperament or patience for a project of this scale.

2. Fair.

3. Clearly exhibiting your ignorance here.

4. More ignorance when coupled with claims of #3.

5. The ignorance approaches epic proportion... possibly insanity... you clearly want to spend ridiculous amounts of money for almost no benefit.

6. Good for you. Again, the chest beating and dick-waving suggests you don't have the temperament for a project of this scale.

Bye.

The gm hybrid trucks aren't too special with parts, and currently you can get them very inexpensively (spare parts). Just a simple LS engine, a special allison transmission, and toyota NiMH batteries.

Only real point of failure is the battery and afm on the engine, but there's ways around the afm.

Get the denali model and you have about as nice of a truck you can think of.

Simple solution in my mind.


Edit: as it turns out, no high end spec on the trucks, but I suppose you could swap interiors.

From what I’ve been told swapping any year GM Truck drivetrain with any other year GM truck is child’s play, different “incompatible “ years usually fit together with a minor change to the rear xmbr and mounts.

If he wanted 1970’s era sheet metal with a 201X hybrid GM drivetrain it’s probably easy, just a harness and dash frustration

Dodge Flightline (rear axle) is usually 8.x

The ops Idea would be to clone Bens hybrid super truck into a 1/2 ton with an irrelevant random V8

Given the superior gearing available for the rear he could proceed to obtain a Caddillac FWD V8 transaxle (preferably 5mt) and then install an 11” Nissan Leaf A/C motor controller and battery using the universal inverter hack face mounted citicar style straight to the face of the 8.x rear pumpkin.

This would give him the most useful DIY through the road hybrid but costs could still be rather outrageous depending on how much controls background he has.
My diesel suburban imagination conversion would have gone that direction, I already had the 5mt + diesel which turned out to be good enough but then everything rusted out :(

OP wasn't kidding at Permalink #10. We're discussing amongst ourselves.

That said my Lexus axle has 6.78 to 1 reduction and it's capable of 10K RPM. 8 to 1 on a 5K RPM capable motor might be a problem-o.

Lol, he never even made it to the magical 5 posts!? What a terrible bot.

.

He could be a member or a former member, with a burner account... 😉


You never know...


:turtle:

>

.

As previously stated no big loss,
I believe this guy had a similar reaction on diyelectriccar

8:1 ratio with ??? Big tires and a 12kRpm + leaf motor would not be rpm limited

Wasn't sure I didn't have the ratios backward.

Needs a picture. Here's one or two that would satisfy his 10 MPH creep function:

https://ecomodder.com/forum/member-f...ectric-t-3.jpg

https://ecomodder.com/forum/member-f...ectric-t-2.jpg

Neither stated clearly his goals at Permalink #1.


Maybe someone else would have an actual, and eventually better, use for this matter anyway.

Moving the bar forward but actually caring about what's cost effective, wouldn't a normal gearset in the front of a 4wd truck (say 4.10:1) be sufficient for 10 mph?

I personally would want more like 65 mph possible or what's the point of dragging around 100s if not 1000 pounds of extra gear.

The added generator is also a bad idea. The ICE motor is the already 10 times more powerful generator.

I did see on the Jeep 4XE (supposedly the #1 selling PHEV last quarter) you can turn on and off the EV modes saving the battery for when you want, or put it in a generator mode where it adds to the charge. Pretty cool. And it runs 8.8 sec 1/8 mile drag racing although the guy did pull out the rear seat and spare tire (common drag racing hacks.) That's generation 4 or 5 Corvette territory. I bet 0-60 it would probably beat the c5 vette as the 1/8 mile is more like 0-75 mph.
https://youtu.be/Reo57YMcH_0

Considering how most commercially-available full-hybrids already resort to the electric motors as generators too, this would be quite overkill.

The d!ck in me hates to side with the OP just on principle, BUT electric power produced by the ICE motor is likely to be brutally inefficient, especially at idle. He's talking about powering household/workshop type items, and a generator is the right choice.

Pulling 2000W out of a V8 idling is going to burn WAY more gas than pulling 2000W out of a 4000W generator.

A typical 4000W generator has a ~200cc engine vs. 5000cc of a 5.0L truck ICE (are there any that small? Mine is 7.4L). LOTS of fuel goes into just keeping the 5.0L mass moving, and it's going to have very high mass flow through it.

The most sensible way to make power using a generator is to size the generator such that the typical continuous run load is 70-80% of the maximum.

Well if you have say a 10kwh battery you don't pull just 2000watts out of a generator. You pull as much as possible and charge the battery, then shut off the ICE and use the battery, repeat. Normally you would want to size the generator to the load, but with the battery you can make that the big load and then bleed that with the usage.

In the way the OP wants to create a "hybrid" probably so, but an engine designed for hybrid use is much better designed and tuned to work as a generator because that's what it is for.

It depends on the goal. If the goal is to use the least amount of gas per kWh, then using the ICE for any charging is folly. Generators are designed for power production at constant rpm in mind. They have a near linear efficiency to power relationship. They are MORE efficient at 100% than they are at 50%. Propulsion ICE aren't. They are designed for efficiency while propelling a vehicle, and they have a variable mass/fuel flow, rpm and power relationship.

The ONLY way this would be viable is if you made the charging occur AT the peak efficiency point for power and rpm of the ICE. Under all conditions, the ICE would NEVER beat the generator in terms of fuel burned per kWh due to the larger mass and increase inefficiencies. Additionally, the battery would need to be VERY robust to handle this charge current as you'd likely be charging the 10kWh battery in under an hour.

The only place the propulsion ICE would beat the generator is in pollutants. Generators are dirty.

You are mistaken on two counts:

1) "hybrid engines" are only marginally more efficient than comparable non-hybrid high efficiency engines. Small HX and HF Hondas and Geo Metros have been pushing 50mpg since the 80s.

2) "hybrid engines" are not designed to be generators AT ALL. They are designed as part of an integrative propulsion system for maximum mpg, and this does NOT include acting as a generator. It is used as a generator in very limited ways, but that is the exception, not the rule.

Take a look at the gen1 Volt. It literally had an on-board generator... arguably designed purely to act as a generator. What was its gas-only economy? About 30mpg.

Hybrids are efficient because they use different propulsion systems for different phases of operation and SHIFT energy consumption to times when it's more efficient rather than the exact moment it's needed.

Use stored energy for torque and accel to offset the horrible efficiency of the ICE during acceleration. Consumed energy is replenished by low power charging when the ICE is much more efficient and/or by regenerative braking.

Power the vehicle via battery when stopped at a light rather than run the gas engine - replenish this energy when moving by low power charging when the ICE is more efficient.

I've recorded many of my daily commutes to work in my Prius - about 15 miles. WITHOUT FAIL my battery CONSUMES 0.5-1.0kWh MORE energy THAN IT PROVIDES - EVERY time. That's provided by additional fuel burn, i.e., that energy comes from burning extra gas; HOWEVER, the WAY the battery is used to offset the ICE inefficiency has a substantial NET benefit to overall economy.

Hybrids are just about the trade off - recover kinetic energy rather than burn it off - release energy when the ICE is horribly inefficient - recover that energy when the ICE is at peak efficiency.

Comparing to a stationary genset, which is either unregulated or subjected to a less stringent regulation, a propulsion ICE will most likely be cleaner overall. But if we consider an ICE built into a hybrid car, while it drives the generator it won't be allowed to be as dirty as a stationary genset not even if it's providing stationary power to the household during an emergency.

Without some known quantities, this is an irrelevant argument. Is a small generator better suited to run sub-3000w loads? Yeah, probably. Is it better to keep one in the bed of your hybrid truck instead of using the already equipped hybrid system? I would say absolutely not.

Single cylinder gas generators are very inefficient, a 6500 watt Generac branded unit I found at lowes burns 6.9 gallons in 10.5 hours at half load. ...4.95kwh/gallon converts to roughly 15% efficient.

...for some values of 'single cylinder'.

duckduckgo.com/?q=linear+electric+compressor+two+pistons+in+one+c ylinder

Granted this is producing compressed air instead of from electricity, but ICE could run on compressed air using the Scuderi Split-Cycle patent (when expired). Nevermind.

In theory a single cylinder anything has the potential of being more efficient because 1) there's less friction and 2) there's less surface area to absorb heat from the combustion mix. In other words, if you need a 1, 3, 5 or 7 liter engine, just make one 1, 3, 5 or 7 liter cylinder.

Although I know it's not that easy.

You can theory in one hand and practice in the other and see which one fills up first. :)

http://thekneeslider.com/images/3litersingle.jpg
thekneeslider.com/3000cc-single-cylinder-motorcycle/

There's been plenty of practice. An inline 6 is about as good as it gets with durability and vibration. But car manufacturers keep using 4 and even sometimes 3 cylinder engines despite the drawbacks. A 1 cylinder enigne would be another step in that direction.

Of course I said single cylinder. An opposed piston, single cylinder, 2-stroke engine would be better than an inline 3 or 4 cylinder 4-stroke engine in some respects.

It's an old joke, wish in one hand and poop in the other.

Huh? What you talking about, Willis? Nict verstehe.