Bought a 2007 Camry Hybrid
 

Now that we have a baby, we decided it would be best to be a 2 car family again (I would have liked to try to get by using bikes and/or ebikes, but "happy wife, happy life" and that...). Didn't want to spend too much, preferably no loan (ended up paying with cash :thumbup: ), newish/safe/reliable, and of course, decent mileage.

The result is a 2007 Camry Hybrid with 202k miles for $3600 out the door. Battery was just replaced with a refurbished one, crossing my fingers that I won't have to go digging in it any time soon. Exterior is in kinda sad shape, but the interior and mechanicals are pretty good, especially for the miles. Only immediate need is rear tires.

MPGs from the drive home are promising. Got 46.4MPG according to the MFD over the ~100 miles to home doing 70ish most of the way. For comparison, our Prius showed 50MPG for the tank when we started for home and was 54MPG when we arrived, so it got probably 56 for that trip (Prius' MFD usually reads 2MPG higher than the calculating at fill up). Not a bad trade off when you consider the extra room, power, and comfort the Camry offers.

So far, I would highly recommend the Camry Hybrid for those looking for a cheap car with close to Prius efficiency, but without the meh looks.

How dare you. ;):D

That is a steal, I was always curious about how the Camry Hybrid and the Prius compared.

I think I've seen nail polish in that shade.

Good to hear the battery was replaced. Based on stuff Keith has been sharing, it seems like now is about the time 2007 batteries are biting the dust.

Managed to get its emissions tested, registered at the DMV, and new rear tires all before noon today. :) Don't ask me how everything went so smooth. Still need to get the tires pumped up, they're probably at the recommended 32PSI.

I have a major complaint against the Camry versus the Prius: no way to add an EV mode button (that I've found yet). With the way the warm up stages work (the Camry seems to act similar to the Gen2 Prius), it's easy to get stuck with the ICE running way more than it needs to. I use the EV button in my Prius as a kill switch until it gets warmed up/to full hybrid mode, but I can't do that in the Camry. That's going to keep my city mileage low unless I can figure out a way to kill the ICE. Maybe I'll add a coolant temp spoofer.

EV mode is a great way to kill a battery or at least shorten it's life. Consider this... the usable capacity of the hybrid battery is about the same as the total capacity of the 12V battery in the trunk.

HV battery: 244.8V * 6.5Ah * 40% = 636Wh
12V battery: 12V * 57Ah = 684Wh

How far would you plan to get running solely on the energy stored in the 12V battery? Probably not far.

Have you ever run an actual comparison in similar conditions? The EV mode range is a couple of miles at low speed, and since you never plug the car into the wall, ALL kinetic energy ultimately comes from gas.

Here's a pro-con list:

Pros:
1) a mostly placebo mileage effect.

Cons:
1) EV mode runs the battery to lower voltage.
2) Lower voltage means higher amperage.
3) Higher amperage is harder on the cell chemistry accelerating wear.
4) deeper depth of discharge is harder on the cell chemistry accelerating wear.
5) More battery use during cold weather is harder on the cell chemistry accelerating wear.
6) More battery use means more engine running to recharge the battery.

I am going a little off topic here, but I think S Keith is absolutely right about the mileage effect of EV mode in a not-plug-in hybrid being a placebo.

Shortly after I bought my 2010 Insight (which also has a limited EV mode) I read someone on IC saying that one should AVOID using the Insight's EV mode in order to save on gas.

Actually, if you think about it, the 2nd law of thermodynamics intuitively tells us that EV mode is LESS efficient than the gas engine in a "soft" hybrid which doesn't plug into the wall.

It's not a simple thing where there is only 1 step:
- Car uses electricity to move (some energy lost as heat)

There's 3 steps, each with a loss of energy to heat//friction
- Car burns gas to move (much energy lost as heat)
- Car reabsorbs SOME kinetic energy during braking and regen coast
- Car uses electricity to move (some energy lost as heat)

It's usually more efficient to stay at step 1. Regen and regenerative braking, for hypermiling purposes, should be limited to situations where you HAVE to stop. EV mode should be used sparingly in order to avoid wasting gas to recharge the battery.

I'm not using EV mode to cruise around on the battery until it's dead, just as a kill switch. The warm up stages can keep the ICE running when it doesn't need to be if you don't get to S4. I use it to P&G and coast to stops when it would normally have the ICE running.

You are still subject to pro #1 and cons 1-6 with your described use and likely saving almost no gas.

I use the EV button in my Prius in almost exactly the same way someone with a manual trans would use a kill switch. I'm not using it to drain the battery. If it doesn't help mileage the way I use it, then everyone who sees gains from engine off coasting must be full of crap. I don't see how this could possibly add a significant amount of wear to the battery the way that I use it.

I pumped all the tires up to 40PSI. They were already in the mid 30s, so not really expecting to see much difference. Plugged in my laptop with Techstream and found out that 3 of the 4 TPMS sensors work great, but one isn't working, so the light will always be on. It'll get the electrical tape treatment. ;) I discovered that the radio/nav display is motorized and hides the CD changer, wasn't expecting that.

I see gains from engine off coasting because my engine is off AND I'm not using my battery. In fairness, it's a lot easier to EOC in a G1 Insight because it's got a manual transmission.

Having the Camry do the EV thing while coasting down to a stop where you're only regenerating charge instead of using any obviously isn't going to hurt your mileage, keep doing that. But try running with the ICE to maintain speed, or find a way to have both the engine and electric motors deactivated for a true EOC.

I would chalk this up to: it's a toyota hybrid. Great mileage with zero effort necessary.

Btw, nice car!

Looks like that 46MPG trip was either a fluke and/or the conditions were perfect. We've made a couple trips to Idaho to visit family (about 320 miles round trip, about half at 55-65mph and half at 80) and got 35.5MPG (according to the display) the first time and 34.9MPG the second (this trip had light rain and a decent headwind on the way home). Still pretty good for what it is and how little I was trying, but not quite what I'd hoped after that initial trip. I'm amazed that it's only rated for 34MPG highway, you could probably average that at 75-80mph. The only changes I've made have been replacing the nearly bald rear tires with new non-LRR all-seasons and setting all the tires to 40PSI. Maybe I'll gain some of it back as the new tires break in.

It would be interesting to drop the Camry's powertrain into a Prius and see how it does in a lighter and sleeker body. I think it could almost the same mileage while having much more pep.

Hmm, I like this the more I scrolled through.

1. You bought like I kinda do: get a beater!

2. I always liked the Camry Hybrid in that colour.

3. I had always predicted the Camry would lead the hybrids because it blends in vs. the Prius' "meh" styling (hint: I was wrong), so I am with you in liking these Camrys better. But from new, I remember these Camry hybrids being a thing here for a hot minute.

4. Instant help from others on driving it. I love that :)

It'll come as a surprise to no one here that lower cruising speeds increase mileage, and this car is no exception. Lowering my speed on the 80MPH limit stretches from 80 to 70-75 took my average from 35 to 39MPG (according to the MFD) for the trip to Idaho.

I'm brainstorming aeromods to try and get a little closer to the Prius' mileage. Rear wheel skirts are first on the list. I'm going to try using 3D printed mounts inspired by the metal ones MetroMPG made here and coroplast. The current clip design takes about 10 minutes a piece to print and holds onto the car pretty good. My goal is to not make any permanent modifications, like drilling holes.
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...2&d=1557289162
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...4&d=1557289182
https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...5&d=1557289304

Oooh, I like those clips! Planning a bolt for those or what?

3D printing side skirt clips is a good idea! What material did you use? ABS?

How's the underbody of the Camry compared to your Prius?

Cool.

Keep your structural expectations low and do at least 6 per side. Use tape too.

Belated congrats on the purchase!!

Check out this blast from the past: Thread: Sister bought a Camry hybrid - 78.9 mpg (US) in ideal P&G conditions

>>> Posted 12-01-2007, 10:37 PM <<<

:D

My sister still has the car. ZERO mechanical issues other than CRAZY high oil consumption. She's got about 200,000 km (120k miles) on it now. In the past couple of years, the ICE has shut down without warning on 2 different occasions at highway speed with a "HYBRID SYSTEM WARNING" message or something like that on the display. Stopping the car and re-booting has cleared the problem. Dealer was unable to find any evidence of a fault (not even any stored codes).

The car will soon be passed down to my 16 year old nephew.

----

On EV mode, I agree - using the button as an ICE kill switch to avoid idling when stopped, or to avoid forced ICE-on coasting is an effective way to increase MPG. Equivalent to an ICE vehicle kill switch. I did it in my gen 2 Prius all the time.

Pro #2: possibly a good quick & dirty way to test a pack's capacity.

Does yours have the full dashboard display?

EDIT: aha - your pics show that you've got it.



If you read my sister's Camry thread, you'll see hers has only a dinky LCD in the cluster, and it's pretty useless for providing fuel economy data.

I think if you got nav, you also got the Prius style display.

I used PLA. I think it'll be up to the task, but I've been wanting to try PETG anyway if I need to make them stronger/tolerate higher temps.

The belly is worse than the Prius'. There's some panels under the front part of the engine bay and there's a couple more under the rear seats. Nothing was added under the front seats. My dad recently got an automotive lift, I'll be sure to use it to take some better pictures the next time I visit.

Camry:
https://i.imgur.com/ZMrqIsd.jpg

Prius:
https://i.imgur.com/qLcQwLX.jpg
(Don't mind the junk in my garage)

I did a quick mockup this morning with cardboard. The cardboard is held to the clips using M5 screws and I designed a spot on the back of the clips for a nut. It seems that the lip I was counting on for the clips to hold to isn't uniform in size (I measured and test fit using the other wheel well). I'll probably use hot glue to make sure they're secure for testing and use some epoxy or silicone if it's to become a permanent feature. I plan on having metal brackets towards the bottom for extra security. The skirt will have to be shorter to not rub on the tire, unless I want to have it bow out.

I kind of want to go full basjoos (probably a shorter tail) on it and see if I can get it to match the Prius' mileage.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1557875269

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1557875269

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1557875269


MetroMPG- It took me a bit to find the fuel economy displays in the center screen. I was excited to find that I wouldn't have to make due with the little screen in the cluster. I hope my wheel skirts work out better than the ones you tried on your sister's Camry.

Just a thought
 

I ended up only going with partial rear wheel skirts on my Civic in combination with smooth wheel covers. Bending the material to clear the wheels made it stick out and slightly reduced gas mileage. My best prototype rubbed against the wheels, which I removed. Combined with smooth wheel covers, the partial rear wheel skirt that I did provided most of the benefits of a rear wheel skirt. Just a thought in case you have trouble clearing the wheels with your skirts.

EDIT: Continuing the skirts down lower and combining them with rear wheel spats might've helped even more, but I didn't get that far in ecomodding with the car.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/attachme...1&d=1533568643

I talked to my sister about her Camry just yesterday, in fact.


She's trying to decide what vehicle to get next. Current top picks are: the A-Team van or a 1970 GTO. :D

Am I right in reading in your Prius thread that the Camry's battery isn't happy?

Yep, Prius battery took a poop a couple weeks ago followed closely by the Camry throwing a code. I swapped the good modules from the Camry into the Prius so I could get the Prius to pass emissions and to have a working car.

I'm considering rebuilding the Camry's battery with these new modules and then piecing together a functioning pack for the Prius using the stock modules from the two cars. It doesn't make a ton of sense to drop ~$2k into a car with 205k miles, but I figure if anything happens to the Camry, I can just swap the new modules into the Prius or pick up a Camry with a dead battery. I would be a few modules short if I did it the other way around and got the new modules for the Prius and then had to put them in the Camry.

Bummer that they both took a poop at once.


But it's nice to have the ability to mix & match to get one vehicle moving again.


On the other hand, be careful: having interchangeable parts is how you end up having 4 Metros on hand... and only enough parts for one fully working car. :D

Haha, I shouldn't run into that issue where I currently live, just a driveway with enough room for 2 cars that are supposed to be serviceable. Though I could clean out the 1 car garage and hide a parts car in there... ;)

I mentioned I have no experience with the BeeMax cells, but I have approximately 13 months of experience with the linked supplier's battery. I purchased a second hand pack from a hybrid service provider. At the time, it was around 4 months old and had about 4K miles on it, and it had sat for about 2 months before I obtained it. It is my understanding that it is one of the first, if not THE first, batteries he sold.

I conducted testing on the modules prior to installation. They all tested at about 6300 vs. 6500mAh of rated capacity. This is comparable what I see on very good used modules from mild to moderate climates. For Phoenix-only batteries, 10+ year old modules with 150K+ miles can yield about 5500 after reconditioning.

I installed the pack in mid-June of 2018. Of particular note was the wild discrepancies in internal resistance. There was a 0.007Ω spread, e.g., .024-.031. New Toyota batteries have a 0.000 spread, and an original Toyota battery typically has no significant spread (.000 - .002) except for any blocks with failed cells. Approximately 4 months later, I conducted a capacity test via Techstream and noted a 40% decrease in capacity.

At the 13 month mark in it's second Phoenix summer, it is performing worse than the worn-out reconditioned battery I removed to install it. When I have time, I plan to pull it, test the individual modules and report comprehensive results.

My biggest concern has been cooling. I recently conducted an experiment where I checked back every 10 minutes after shut down. At the time I turned the car off, the battery was at about 130°F. One the 3rd or 4th trip back, I saw temperatures above 150°F. This indicates that the core of the thick D cell is MUCH hotter than the surface where the probe is mounted.

On "D" cells in general, the reliability of the Honda cells, the premium "D" cells made by Panasonic vs. Chinese-made cells, has been notably inferior to the Toyota prismatic module. I have a lot of personal experience with Panasonic made Honda "D" cells.

The Honda data suggests that "D" cells are inferior in general, and my experience suggests that "D" cells in a Prius in a hot environment are inferior to Toyota prismatic modules by a large degree.

Aside from this experiment, I would never consider kits from that manufacturer for use in anything but a very mild climate.

Additionally, while the individual sub-packs are interchangeable, the supporting hardware is not. You can't take one for a Camry and put it in a Prius. The cables and harnesses are not interchangeable.

Yikes, that doesn't sound good. Temps here are nothing like Phoenix, but July and August get pretty hot. I wonder if the space between the cells actually hurts the cooling unless the fan speed is bumped up. The Sanyo D cells in the Escape hybrid seem to hold up well, but they also have a cooling system better than some EV batteries.

I guess I'll have to get all the loose modules clamped together in the Camry pack and start checking capacity and reconditioning.

Cobbling together a working battery from used cells sounds like a way to ensure you'll have to do it again soon. I might consider it if it didn't take much time, otherwise I'd want to do it once and be done for the life of the vehicle.

I have very strong opinions about the cooling. I would encourage you to read the following and draw your own conclusion regarding how well you can get airflow to go around a cylinder/sphere:

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/ai...ragsphere.html

Note that turbulent flow has almost no ability to cool compared to attached laminar or near laminar flow.

The cooling system was DESIGNED for the prismatic modules. IMHO, the cooling system has been rendered completely ineffective regardless of fan speed.

The FEH Sanyo cells are the same as in the 2006-2011 Honda Civic Hybrid. The 2009-2011 HCH2 HV battery is the worst ever made with a 30% failure rate after 3-4 years. 2006-2008 was the second worst with 16% failure rate after 5-7 years. Yet the FEH has one of the most reliable batteries ever made.

The cooling system of the Prius "kits" are more like the HCH2 without the benefit of staggered cells.

This guy sounds like a nut, but he makes what sound like good points:

https://priuschat.com/threads/prius-...4#post-2573759

Me too. After reading this and other threads here and at Priuschat, I've pretty much decided that when my battery craps out I'll just replace it with a new OEM battery and be done with it. It's only ~$300 more than those D-cell replacements, and you don't have to take apart your old battery.

Anyone know if the warranty on a new OEM battery is the same as the original?

This question kills me. How can anyone think it's remotely reasonable? 8-10yr/100-150K on a car that is OUT of warranty (older and higher mileage).

Of course not. Since 1/2016, 3 years. Prior to that, it was only 1 year.

A new Toyota battery is NOT drop-in. You have to transfer the electronics bay, relays, top air dam, vent hoses, etc. to the new battery. You have to pull the cover and attach new main leads and safety plug and properly torque those 4 nuts.

It's not much work, but you will have to pay the $1500 core charge unless you properly strip your core, but you'll most certainly want to have the two together, so you don't miss anything.

Where did you see that a new battery is only $2000? I just checked with my local dealer and a battery for my Prius would be about $2700 after returning the core. $2000 would be a little easier to swallow. EDIT: Nevermind, I can't math, it would be about $2k.

I'm considering getting a new battery from the dealer for one of the cars, probably the Camry, and using the old modules to build a decent pack for the other car (same plan as before, but with a new battery that will last). While $700-1500 for a rebuilt battery or a DIY rebuild for both would be much cheaper, I think the peace of mind knowing that at least one of our cars should be good for at least 5-10 years might be worth the extra expense.

List price of a Gen2 Prius battery is $1,950+applicable tax. There is a $1,500 core charge that you get back when you return your old battery.

All other batteries are MUCH higher. Toyota dropped the price of the Gen2 pack by about $650 at the beginning of 2018 in response to the aftermarket.

Gen3 are around $2600 and Camry is over $3K.

I just realized that I'm an idiot and for whatever reason thought $3500 minus the core charge (I believe the guy at the parts counter said it was $1350 and I've seen that online a couple places) was $2700. Don't mind me...

That sucks that the Camry battery costs so much more. I will have the think on this...

Do the OEM batteries have new modules? I thought I'd read that they were rebuilds or old stock at one point, but it looks like the current ones are new.

All Toyota "new" batteries have always contained newly manufactured modules (verifiable by the DDMY code). On a limited basis, in some markets (maybe only CA), they offered "reconditioned" packs under a different part number. I believe that has been discontinued due to poor reception and poor quality.

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered a battery for the Camry from my local dealer last Friday. It should arrive Wednesday or Thursday, so I should have 2 working cars by the end of the weekend. I'll put the worst of my modules in the core I return. I think I'll leave the Prius' battery alone until temperatures drop a bit, then open it in the car and start doing some charge/discharge cycles to see if I can liven them up a bit and hopefully put off buying another battery for a little longer.

The new battery has been in the car for a couple months, doing fine so far.

The battery arrived at the dealer the following Tuesday and I installed it over the next two evenings. I definitely removing the old battery and replacing it within a couple days so everything is fresh in your brain. Waiting over a month to do the reverse process left me scratching my head quite a bit as far as what order to do things and how the wiring is supposed to be routed.

I haven't noticed any change in MPGs. The SOC seems to stay at 6 bars almost all the time unless I keep it going in EV. Long hills barely reduce the SOC (if at all) where before it would be drained by the top (my Prius' battery has also been drained by large hills since I bought it). I'm not sure if this is normal behavior for a Camry hybrid, as my only other experience has been with the sad battery.

Very normal.

Assuming you have need of heavy A/C use during your warmer months, you will notice a draw down in SoC at long lights or extended A/C operation when engine isn't running.

Make sure you keep your A/C operating top notch. Cooling air is pulled from the cabin. Aim the center vents so they "lob" cool air onto the back deck.

Lastly, I recommend you use Hybrid Assistant and set the fan control to 100°F when operating in warmer weather.