Car buying - HX/Echo/Focus, correct values
 

Hi everyone. Driving an automatic Prizm right now which has been alright but is in mediocre shape and I really want a manual. Looking to spend about $6,000 max, hoping more like $3,000.

Here are a couple examples of things I've been looking at. Would love your thoughts on what to go for.

Echo
Not that many in my area. Got a dealer selling a clean 2001 with 115k on it for $3950 which looks about $500 over the value and they say "no haggle price."

Focus
Lots around me, got a 2005 supposedly good condition but CD player and something else working sporadically. 70k miles asking $4900. Blue book comes up $5500 clean, get excited, edmunds comes up $4600. Now confused.

Civic HX
No HF around me that aren't beaten to death, and only decent HX seem to be at dealers. Got a 2002 130k, looks mint, dealer asking 5800. Blue book $6500 retail, get excited, edmunds $4,000. What the heck.


I know the honda lean burns are kind of the holy grail around here, but I feel like kind of a tool paying that much more for a car with 130k on it. Also, bothered by the huge discrepancies between kbb and edmunds. Any insight on that and general recommendations would be much appreciated.

What kind of mileage are you getting in the Prizm now? Apply that same increase to the Echo, Focus, and Civic. Also, check what others are getting with their Echos, Focus' and Civics in the ecomodder garage.

IMO it sounds like the Echo is the best bang for the buck, but its also the smallest car. If you don't need the extra space it is a great car capable of really good mileage.

Here are the EPA ratings for the cars.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1302205839

I am just taking a guess here, but the discrepancies between the two books could be based on a few things. One is the timeliness that they update their information with. Used car prices in the US have gone up quite a bit in the last month or so on older vehicles (say pre 2006), just because there is not a lot of supply of them. We are actually shipping down cars from Canada, even with the dollar being above par, just because there is money to be made sending a 2007 Impala south where 3 months ago there wasn't. So depending on how often they update their prices, it will affect what result you get.

The other variable is where they get their information from. One may get it from retail sources or insurance companies, and one may get it from the wholesale auctions that dealers buy from. You have to treat the guide books as just that, a guide. They are average prices across the whole country, and rusty east coast cars bring down the average over clean west coast cars, so if you are looking at a vehicle that is out of the norm a bit (ie a standard when most are automatics etc), then you have to judge accordingly. Or as I always tell people, "It's worth what someone will pay for it." If you like the car and it's in your price range then that's the one to buy. Just my $.02

Do you have to buy from a dealer? That usually adds 20-30%

KBB, NADA, and Edmunds are guides to help you get a feel for what a car is worth, but there is no specific value. Every car is different and is only worth what someone will pay for it. Some may be worth more than a blue book price, some (most?) will be worth less than blue book.

Keep looking, there are good deals out there.

All these price references are an appreciation, and appreciations tend to vary ;)

Are both referring to the same value ?

Cars at dealerships are always priced higher than private sales.
OTOH, selling your car to a dealership usually gets you a lower price than a private sale.

The difference seems to be the mark-up at a dealership.

Thought I replied to Daox but clicked away apparently. Said something like:

Getting a just over 30 most of the time from the Prizm which isn't bad but I feel very handicapped by the 3 speed auto. I feel like I could do much better in a 5-speed manual.

Was in fact looking at Echos first, but there aren't many for sale around here apparently. The one I was talking about is almost 2 hours away, and most are automatic. Just talked to that dealer and they said they could do $3800 if they drop their 3 month warranty that they do. Still well over what it seems to be worth though.

Okay read the other posts now. Thanks for the input. I was very careful to select both estimates as "dealer price" or "private sale" price depending on what car I was looking at, so that is not the reason for the difference. Perhaps it is inflation of used car prices as war wagon said, since nearly everything in my area seems ridiculously overpriced.

And no, I don't really want to buy from a dealer. It's just that there aren't many echos and lean burn hondas around, and finding one in decent shape seems kind of hard.


Maybe I'll end up just holding out for a year or two and shoot for a fiesta or something like that.

Well it sounds like you don't want to spend the money for a different car. What about a transmission swap?

I think changing the transmission a little too big a job for me, and I don't love my current car that much. It's a tiny bit smoky smelling and the speakers aren't great.

It's not necessarily that I don't want to spend the money, I just want to make a smart choice. I would consider purchasing a brand new vehicle if it make the most sense.

So I expanded my research a bit. Looks like the market really is just high right now. And I wasn't kidding about not many echos. Check this out:

I live near the WI/IL border. There are for sale by owner on craigslist,
Manual transmission Echos in WI or IL: 0
Manual transmission Echos within 300 miles of me: 3
Average asking price on those 3: almost exactly double the blue book

So. Makes me not want to buy because prices are bad, but gas is going up so I'll be annoyed sticking with the auto as well. Kind of leaning toward the dealer echo now, since their price is suddenly looking a lot better.

Oh, one more thought. I've heard the Jettas with the 1.8L turbo do significantly better than EPA if you don't drive them hard, due to the turbo not coming into effect. Is that true? Because there are a few Jettas around. Should be easier to find a reasonable price on one.

I buy and sell a lot of cars, and one thing I always hear is never buy a VW. Don't mean to start a flame war, but I have never had a good experience with them (except for the TDI's). A TDI with a 5 speed is a great car, but I would avoid a gas one like the plague.

The fact that there are lots of them available where as the Echo etc are in high demand and hard to find is a good indicator of where they should rank on the desirability scale. Again, just my $.02.

I agree with War Wagon, my room mate has VW Jetta and a friend up the street has a Passat both friends spend alot keeping their cars on the road, stuff wears out quickly and some parts cost a fair amount more, like we found a handful of parts on my room mates jetta that we could only get from the dealer, they both love how they drive but want to get rid of their cars because they can't afford to own them.
I like Honda's because they tend to be on the other end of the spectrum when it comes to repairs, of course if they have been owned by teenagers they figure they have been trashed and you should walk away, but that holds true for any car.

Interesting. I have 2 friends with jettas, one with a golf, one with a passat. They all love their cars. The passat owner especially. Of course, he has the turbo and it's chipped so it has like 250 horsepower plus he likes to tinker anyway.

I heard Echos didn't sell that well, which I figured was part of the reason they were rare. I do know someone with an Echo who loves it as well though, so people just hanging on to theirs could definitely be a factor.

I think the hardest part is finding manuals period, actually. The whole market is down to 15% manual from what I understand.

I have borrowed and extensively driven a 2002 Civic DX sedan which drove much nicer than the 6th gen Civic I currently own. The DX averages 36-37mpg on mostly highway driving by my non-hypermiling friend. I believe that HX is on the same frame and suspension as the DX sedan, right? If it is, it's a nice, small, but not too small car. Driving the DX sedan at 70-80mph on the highway was a breeze. It rode very well even at those speeds.

There's my .02 about the 7th gen Civic.
JMac

I would get the Echo and be patient. No timing belt, beam rear axle, lightweight. Hold out for a 2 dr manual. The one I had would easily do 47 MPG and even got it to 57 using engine off P&G.

A stripper with manual and no AC would probably go cheap. I got mine for $3k over a year ago, sold it a while back, when I got a bike that did 80+ MPG.

regards
Mech

I'm also in the avoid-VW camp. They have certainly had some significant quality problems since the late 90's. I've had friends buy four VWs (all new from the dealer with gas engines) and every single one had major problems that ended up having the car traded in early or covered under Lemon laws.

There's a reason VW has been consistently at or near the bottom of the JD Powers dependability studies, year after year for the last decade.
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/JD...11029-vdss.pdf
Looks like they are up a couple notches this year...

Thanks. I've heard a couple stories like this now. Definitely would like to get an echo, still deciding if I am willing to pay 500 over blue book due to currently inflated prices.

The Echo is a great commuter car with low maintenance costs. As others have mentioned, it is capable of great mileage. It's a pity that it is rare in the USA. We have tons here in Canada.

Check out my gas logs for MPG figures and what to expect in terms of FE.

You should also consider Tercels, Hyundai Accents, Mitsubishi Mirages, post-merger Kia Rios - anything with MT & 1.5 or 1.6 liter engines & a reasonable reliability reputation.

Thanks for the suggestions. Had not checked some of those in a while and I didn't even realize Mirage's got that good of mileage.

I hope you don't mind if I keep requesting opinions occasionally.

Found a 98 civic dx (especially interesting because it's not price inflated and has been lowered), supposedly good condition, but of course 184k miles.

I don't need whatever I buy to last a long time, but I would like something that I don't have to worry about for a year or 2. What would you do? (Planning ask about maintenance history and such of course.)

Well, I do like Civics, so I'd at least consider that one...

-soD

I'd avoid anything with >150k miles.

Found a cheap 94 vx that was hit in the back. Waiting a little to call about the miles and stuff, probably a million, but in the mean time:

Anyone have a guess on the odds that all this needs is an alignment and quarter panel (like he claims)?

http://images.craigslist.org/3m63pe3...5d73a81d35.jpg

That's not a minor repair...

Civics are unibody cars, so damage to the quarter like that is actually structural. That doesn't look like a simple cut-it-out-and-weld-in-a-new-panel since there appears to be buckling beyond where the impact damage is.

It can be done, but I'd pass on it and find another car.

Yeah, I figured it wasn't likely to be that simple. Thanks for the info. I will remember that.

Update/minor questions:


Found an HX that's old ('96, 170k) but clean body and according to the guy,

"Full top end rebuild at 145000 with new timing belt and water pump
Fully rebuilt 5spd. manual trans. at 147000 with new clutch and resurfaced flywheel"

He also has some light mods on it, but nothing that would mess with mileage except a cold air intake. So my question is, how much affect will the CAI have on power/efficiency?

I'm assuming that CAI = more 02 hitting the sensor thus more fuel injected and decrease in fuel economy. I'm curious if it means I'll be able to keep RPM lower though, and thus stay in lean burn at a slightly higher speed. Because if that's the case then I'm thinking I wouldn't want to mess with it.

I have since read a couple WAI threads and the CAI vs WAI thread. Looks like what is best depends somewhat on how picky your car is about hot air and what climate you live in.

I'm still interested to know if the CAI intake will let me keep the RPM lower, and if anyone has any wild guesses about whether or not that would make up for losses associated with lower throttle position.

I've yet to see an ABA or scientifically controlled test proving any benefits (either power or fuel economy) from WAI or CAI. The most convincing testimonials come from long-term fuel logs showing possible mpg gains with WAI, but they're also linked to driver awareness and behavioral changes, and possibly caused by engine tune, ambient temperature, tire inflation, route changes, and myriad other factors.

It's impossible to see a CAI keeping rpms lower. Engines are coupled to tires by fixed gear ratios. If your engine spins 2200 rpm at 60 mph in top gear today, it's going to do it tomorrow, too. It's going to spin 2200 rpm at 60 mph climbing mountains in Alaska in the winter, or descending grades in Death Valley in the middle of August. GPH consumption and mpg will change, but rpms won't give you a clue to either.

Ah, this especially is the sort of thing I was wondering about. Thanks! If I get the car I will probably try a couple ABAB tests at some point.

Okay so this is technically more car advice than ecomodder advice, but I figure you guys probably know more about lean burn hondas than any other group/forum I'm in:

Going to check out the 96 HX on Friday. What sorts of things should I be looking for? My car knowledge is improving, but still pretty basic. Anything in particular that you guys know of that tends to go bad on these or anything like that?

Look for rust inside the wheel wells. Also, make sure that thing shifts into 3rd gear nicely. I would try to shift it fairly quickly and see if it grinds at all. The cold air intake makes me suspicious that this car was probably modded heavily at some point.

You might ask around about how to make sure it's lean burn is working. Not sure you'd be able to tell just from driving it. I'm sure the community can help us with that. In order for lean burn to function correctly, the HX needs:
*The special air sensor
*The stock ECU
*The special catalytic converter setup

Is that all correct?
JMac

Yeah, I'd obviously want the lean burn working. :P Actually a little paranoid now that you say that because while he did specifically say it has the d16y5 (hx engine) he didn't mention anything about the mpg it gets which you'd think he would with gas prices shooting up.

He has replaced the stock exhaust. That could actually disable lean burn somehow? Seems more like it would just make it likely to fail emission standards.

As far as being modded, it's got a handful of mods on it right now but I can hardly see it being used as a street racer with a d16y5 engine in it. My impression was that he was just doing stuff to it to make it seem cool. (Smoked headlights and such)

Edit:
Although he did put strut supports and a rear tie support. That does suggest he wanted to drive it more like a race car. :/

The short answer is: I'm not completely sure, but if they pulled the catalytic converter off that car, then I'm pretty sure lean burn will not be functional. A lot of those guys will pull the cat out and put on a "test pipe" to supposedly get a little more horsepower. I'm pretty sure not having a cat is illegal in every state, but if you don't have inspections you may never get caught, unless of course you move to a state that does.

Anyways, I think there are some sensors in the cat with the HX which tell it yes or no for lean burn. Can any of you HXperts comment?

HTH,
JMac