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bschloop 08-10-2014 08:54 AM

cbr250r streamliner sport style
 
I just picked up a brand new 2012 cbr 250r this week with the intent to streamline it. I've built streamliners before, but I'm hoping to make this one a truly different beast. Instead of conforming to the idea that a streamliner must be a huge touring bike, I am going to build a high performance high efficiency sport bike. The ultimate goal is a streamlined bike that is at home on both the racetrack and the backroads, a bike that looks and is fast as well as efficient. Also important to me is the idea of a comfortable ride, but I differ with some in that I consider riding straight backed with my feet in front of me the least comfortable option. I like my feet under me, low handlebars and a cushion under my chest to lean forward on, again leading me to a sportier bike. This being said, I do agree that streamlined bodywork can be an ideal way to incorporate carrying capacity to a motorcycle, and I will be using whatever space I can in that way. I don't expect it will carry 4 full grocery bags, but that is not the point. I have a truck for hauling tools and building materials, a little car for hauling groceries and my groups of up to four (not to mention driving in winter), and a bike for hauling me (and sometimes my wife also) to work and play. Each has it's use and is necessary in my life. Each ought to be as efficient as it can be while fulfilling it's purpose.
Anyway, enough ranting and on to the build.

dirtydave 08-10-2014 09:28 AM

Sounds like a fun ride. Are you aiming for high MPG or MPH?

bschloop 08-11-2014 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydave (Post 439276)
Sounds like a fun ride. Are you aiming for high MPG or MPH?

Thanks. So far its a pretty fun ride even in stock form.

As for MPH vs MPG I'm aiming for both. When you streamline a vehicle it makes it easier to slip through the air this will cause the same amount of power to propel you along at higher speeds or less power maintain the same speeds. They are not mutually exclusive.

dirtydave 08-11-2014 02:37 PM

Yes sir! That sounds great. Post some pictures!

Grant-53 08-11-2014 07:59 PM

The potential for high mpg in a streamlined 250cc single is great. The latest post by Alan Smith on craigvetter.com is a good example. He picked up a substantial increase in mpg by lowering his seat thereby reducing frontal area. Going to an aero tuck on a bike will do the same. One hindrance to riding a motorcycle is the lack of adjustment to fit the rider. I built a set of aero bars for my bike using bar end grips, aluminum angle stock, and tubing. Unlike most units, I made the hand grips vertical so I can rest my forearms on the angle sections and mount controls on the grips. If the steering is close to neutral and does not require a great deal of leverage, you might try aero bars on a light motorcycle. The 7/8" diameter tubing is common to bikes and cycles. The twist grip would be a bit different feeling at first. Not only do you get a lower profile but the wrist is not stressed. I mount my bars 10" apart but you could go wider for better leverage.

gregsfc 08-12-2014 06:34 AM

I think it's great to see you or anyone else seriously interested enough in streamlining to build something totally new; incorporating some of the ideas and concepts promoted by Craig Vetter and the Vetterites; but at the same time showing everyone who may take an interest, that there is more than one style possible for a streamlined bike, and more than one riding position preferred.

Please keep doing what you're planning on doing, and please keep us updated on your mods. I think what you're planning is fantastic.

I subscribe to the idea that the motorcycle industry continues to alienate itself from the mainstream in North America by catering to the traditionalists and X generations only and continually refuses to position themselves, from a product and marketing standpoint, to offer products and transportation solutions for the rest of us as the auto industry has left them in the dark ages.

I see Honda Powersports sort of reaching out to some degree with some of their new, future-thinking product concepts periodically, but they don't ever follow these concepts up with any kind of marketing effort that would actually reach the target markets that might actually be interested in such products. Instead, we see Honda throw these great concepts out there for the ole guard to ridicule and to say "what is Honda thinking"! And then the products disappear since their is no market for them other than a few folks that have actively come looking for such products in the absence of a marketing campaign to reach the mainstream.

The Vetterites show us one type or style of what can be achieved beyond the old biker beliefs about what a bike should be, giving powered two and three wheelers more usefulness and more efficiency simultaneously. But in my opinion, the Vetterites fall short, because sometimes Craig's statements to the press and designs and lack of inclusiveness, sort of try to force us to believe that their streamlined concepts are the only acceptable ways of doing things. The stringent parameters of the 4-grocery bag test; the promoted idea that the laid-back riding stance is the only comfortable stance; that streamlining itself can only be this one shape; and the idea that only very-small displacement power plants should be used for the future of 2 and three wheelers; all work to alienate a possible, would-be market for the future of motorcycles and trikes.

It seems as though the concept product that Fred Hayes brings to the events would open the minds of the Vetterites, since it flies in the face of these promoted ideas in so many ways; the idea that there is more than one way to improve efficiency (small streamline in conjunction with tucking versus the upright streamlining concept); more than one shape; more than one riding stance; and more than one engine type and/or horsepower capability are all shown with Fred's vehicles, yet we still get these closed-minded statements and writings on his website and in the interviews that Fred disproves every year with his fantastic showings in the events.

If you one day show up with this new streamliner, please don't try to conform to the grocery-bag test, and I'll back you 100%. We'll crown you the people's champ. I showed up at the AMA event in July with an almost-stock CTX700 with only a Madstad windshield and Dewalt Tool box behind strapped to the pillion half of the seat. By tucking on the highway, on a non-streamlined 670 parrallel twin capable of around 45 horsepower/ 43 peak foot pounds of torque, I came in at almost 102 mpg. Just imagine if this bike were fully streamlined. I could have been right up there with the top guys with an engine well over twice the size and much heavier than everyone except for Fred.

jkv357 08-12-2014 09:39 AM

Congrats on the new ride!

The CBR250 would be my choice for the basis for a streamliner or mileage-getter. It has significant advantages over a 250 Ninja when it comes to efficient cruising.

I wouldn't sweat not being scored in the Challenge. Just get some amazing numbers, your way, and have fun.

Post some photos of your new bike and give us some idea of where you are headed with your streamlining.

renault_megane_dci 08-12-2014 05:13 PM

Good to see a fellow "extra mph is extra mpg in disguise" kind of guy.

Looking forward for some modding and pics.

bschloop 08-13-2014 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renault_megane_dci (Post 439746)
Good to see a fellow "extra mph is extra mpg in disguise" kind of guy.

Looking forward for some modding and pics.

That depends on how you get those extra mph. More power=lower mpg, better use of power=higher mpg.

So far no mods, I want to ride it stock for a little bit to get a solid baseline before I start really getting into it.

I do have one question though. Has anyone added an mpguino to one of these yet? I'd love to put one on mine, and I also wonder about adding a speedo fix output to it for when I change the gearing. Otherwise I'll have to buy a speedo calibrator first.

jkv357 08-13-2014 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bschloop (Post 439913)
I do have one question though. Has anyone added an mpguino to one of these yet? I'd love to put one on mine, and I also wonder about adding a speedo fix output to it for when I change the gearing. Otherwise I'll have to buy a speedo calibrator first.

Take a look at this thread on SVRider.com about the FuelBot - FuelBot: Fuel Gauge and MPG Gauge for the SV650 - Anyone interested? - Suzuki SV650 Forum: SV650, SV1000, Gladius Forums.

It's designed for the F.I. SV650, but I believe it may work with other F.I. systems as well.

Grant-53 08-13-2014 11:01 PM

gregsfc, It is easy enough to disagree with what others are doing when it doesn't suit your situation. State you preferred position without running down others and you will get more support. I understand the reason why some older riders prefer the riding position they do. I will be changing my bicycle frame because at 60 yrs. I am having a hard time throwing a leg over my seat. I am pleased to see you do well with the low revving Honda as it proves a point. The fuel mileage is based not on displacement alone rather the keys are the mass rate of flow and compression ratio. Whether small displacement and high rpm or large displacement and low rpm we want to look at how much Air/Fuel mixture is used to produce a given amount or power. A diesel engine usually operates at twice the compression ratio of a gas engine. The effect of weight on both fuel economy and safety has been overstated lately by some folks. What is very clear is that a 250cc gas cycle is very affordable. Both the aero tuck and the FF positions offer similar gains in reducing frontal area. The four bag rules are somewhat arbitrary but I would argue that some cargo capacity is useful. I would further suggest that being able to easily change configurations to add a passenger or additional carrying capacity is an important feature. My take on body styles is that there are subtle relationships between the center of mass and the center of pressure vertically as well as horizontally to be explored. The concept of aero steer or yaw inputs are just now getting the attention needed to sort out optimum handling. I believe the center of mass should be just below the center of pressure but at this point it is only an educated guess that needs to be tested.
I can defend what the Vetterites have done without getting into a cult of personalities. I may never own a motorcycle but I appreciate each step forward and will apply the lessons learned to my own needs.

sendler 08-14-2014 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bschloop (Post 439274)
Also important to me is the idea of a comfortable ride, but I differ with some in that I consider riding straight backed with my feet in front of me the least comfortable option. I like my feet under me, low handlebars and a cushion under my chest to lean forward on, again leading me to a sportier bike.

Wow Ben! This is quite an about face from your Yamaha. After all the work you put into that fairing I am surprised to see you take on another big project so soon.
.
To begin with you can start out with a tank bag such as the Dowco that I use to lay your chest down on. Eventually I would like to build a fiberglass hard case for the tank so I don't have to rely on stuffing the bag full in order to get the correct height. I actually use a giant balloon in my bag to take up the slack and add suspension.
.
PMP Sprockets can sell you +1, -2 gearing and the DRD speedo healer is an easy install to correct the odo.

renault_megane_dci 08-14-2014 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bschloop (Post 439913)
That depends on how you get those extra mph. More power=lower mpg, better use of power=higher mpg.

So far no mods, I want to ride it stock for a little bit to get a solid baseline before I start really getting into it.

I do have one question though. Has anyone added an mpguino to one of these yet? I'd love to put one on mine, and I also wonder about adding a speedo fix output to it for when I change the gearing. Otherwise I'll have to buy a speedo calibrator first.

Sure.
I was on the hunt for 100 mph with my GN 250 without engine mods before it went bang ...

low&slow 08-14-2014 04:08 PM

Congratulations Ben! I'm glad you got your new moto and I'm very interested in your progress with it. After Alan's incredible performance at the Mid-Ohio Vetter Challenge I'm thinking about changing platforms for my streamliner and the Honda CBR250R is at the top of my list. I have 2 more Challenges to compete in this year and then I plan to start looking for a CBR250R to streamline for the 2015 season.
I'll be following this thread.:thumbup:

Grant-53 08-14-2014 05:22 PM

Have at it guys! An aero body for a 50cc scooter is on my to do lists.

jkv357 08-14-2014 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant-53 (Post 440149)
Have at it guys! An aero body for a 50cc scooter is on my to do lists.

Something like this Kreidler? I think it's a 50.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps37fbf26b.jpg

Maybe not, but I've always liked it.

radiantthought 08-14-2014 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkv357 (Post 440157)
Something like this Kreidler? I think it's a 50.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps37fbf26b.jpg

Maybe not, but I've always liked it.

What is that beautiful machine?! I think I need one!

gregsfc 08-15-2014 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant-53 (Post 440019)
gregsfc, It is easy enough to disagree with what others are doing when it doesn't suit your situation. State you preferred position without running down others and you will get more support.

I think that my intent was absolutely misunderstood. I did go on a long rant and I got carried away. My intent was not to be negative; especially to the Vetterites or Vetterettes. My real intent is to be critical of the negativity or lack of inclusiveness of Craig himself regarding other ideas, concepts, product types, etc. In other words, I think I'm promoting positive attitudes and fighting against negativity that is sort of part of the current events. At the AMA event, Vic, Alan, and Richard were all down to earth, supportive and very nice folks that seemed to have a genuine interest in some of the other rides, including some of the stock rides, but this was not true regarding the inventor. There was a level of closed-mindedness that I picked up on, not only at the event, but from watching Youtube interviews, statements, his website, and his quotes. I absolutely respect what he has done for the sport and is offering up to the industry, but I also believe there are other ways of doing things, that, while maybe not as good, are still valid and should still be explored.

The idea that has been offered by the OP does not suit my situation. I don't like that riding position personally. I prefer a straight up, feet slightly forward position just like I had with my previous scooter and my current CTX700. What I don't like though is the proposition that the Vetter-promoted riding position is the only comfortable position; that the Vetter Streamlining shape is the only shape, even if it is the most efficient shape; that 4-bags of groceries upright and left in the bags are in any way more superior than carrying in other way; and that engine technologies are unimportant or insignificant and that only limited horsepower and displacement can have positive impacts on fuel economy. All of these ideas are promoted by him and his events, and everything else is ignored or discouraged. Just because I like the Vetter-promoted riding position and alot of other folks prefer it, does not mean that has to be the only future of two wheel transportation, and I think alot of these other ideas are discouraged in the events. I could bring up a host of details that I witnessed or in some cases was impacted by the way the events are carried out and results posted that are sort of good-ole boy in nature, but then doing that would be negative.

Grant-53 08-15-2014 11:41 AM

If you have issues with Craig then take them up with him directly. "To err is human, to forgive is divine." That said we can get on with making progress on a variety of fronts. When I have an informed opinion I hope I can always share it in a courteous manner. It is not easy these days. For example, I will advocate lap belts for motorcycles based on my training and experience in automotive engineering. Not popular but in time we may find useful solutions that include them in some form.
Passion and zeal of an artist can be tempered by the realities of the market place.

Grant-53 08-15-2014 11:51 AM

There are some great resources showing what has been done fairing small motorcycles. Thanks to those sharing photos. Kreidlers have long caught my eye. I am also familiar with glider designs for streamlining. We have the National Soaring Museum and the Glenn Curtiss Museum in our area. Those who attend the Green Gran Prix would be well rewarded by visiting these sites. Glenn Curtiss built bicycles and motorcycles before getting into aviation.

sendler 08-15-2014 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregsfc (Post 440258)
I think that my intent was absolutely misunderstood.

I agree. I had to go back to even find what post was being debated since whenever I read it I see nothing but normal discussion of opinion. Certainly nothing to get all defensive about.

Grant-53 08-16-2014 12:34 AM

I accept your expertise. Just I see folks getting into personally issues a bit too much for my taste. Sorry, I don't want to be a drag.

gregsfc 08-16-2014 06:04 AM

Absolutely nothing personal with Craig. I spoke with him at the event; he was cordial, he has passion, he has presented some fantastic and inventive concepts for motorcycles, is a true hall of famer, and best of all, he keeps doing the work to keep these events going and tries his best to create some sort of focus in this country on fuel efficiency for two and three wheelers.

I have a criticism though about the lack of inclusiveness for different concepts and welcome spirit of the events that could make them so much better; much more participated; and much more reported on by the press. I was surprised at the AMA event that there was no press at the pre meeting the night before; the pre meeting before the event; during the event; and only one article printed about the Sunday ceremony.

The issues I've brought up, especially the grocery bag test, have been brought up many, many times to Craig by those who show up at the event and then realize it's not designed for the regular motorcyclist. Some of these issues are brought up and defended by Craig on his website. He has a response and a justification for the way he is doing things. I don't believe I could convince him that he has "erred". It's not as if I could tell him about it and he would think he's erred. What he is doing is fine if that's all he wants out of it. He's the only one doing it that I know of, and it's his show. But the result of this limited scope is that five or six guys come to compete every event; three or four show up with stock bikes just to ride but not really compete; most often for the first and only time. Usually a three or four wheeler will show up for demonstration purposes; a few big bikes with riders will show up just to see what it is all about and just because it's an opportunity for a group ride that draws attention out on the highway when folks see those streamlined machines and this gives them another chance to show off their big chromed machines.

This website being a discussion forum, I'm simply discussing my belief that if Craig decided to make this event more inclusive; about more than what it is about; maybe it would draw more interest and participation. It is not meant as a personal attack. Just my opinion which itself may be flawed. I'm not sure I'm right. It might still be fledgling along even with more classes of winners and a more welcomed spirit to draw high mpg vehicles, but I do feel like what he is doing is not working as intended. And that is to get the world interested in streamlined motorcycles and trikes and scooter for the future of transportation. Someone told me that in Europe, they know of only one person doing this.

sendler 08-16-2014 09:56 AM

We should probably continue this over here and leave Ben's thread alone.
.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ice-29352.html
.

Grant-53 08-16-2014 12:29 PM

Agreed. So Ben my input is to look at using honeycomb aluminum for bulkheads, crush zones, and a safety shell as found in modern cars but without the roof. The head piece to be faired as per Alan Smith's. The main bulkhead behind the back should be able to withstand 3 times the gross weight with the rider. Width is going to be around 26" so length will be 3 to 5 times that. A low nose and a high tail with curved sides seems to be the best for stability to date. By using elliptical bulkheads and conic sections we could avoid the compound curves that are so hard to form. The honeycomb can be used to form curves by making cuts to the inside. See "Successful Composite Techniques" by Keith Noakes for info on cut and fold methods. I have looked at a number of sailplane plans and my favorite is found at www.vintagesailplaner.com/Sheet1bis-9.pdf - just reduce the drawing view to see the whole sheet. For our purposes end the shell at the #6 bulkhead either as a kammback or taper to a point. Size the shell so that the canopy top comes to the shoulder then form a narrow windscreen and helmet fairing. Given the skill you have shown on your previous project you should do well.

bschloop 08-17-2014 05:05 PM

http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/...psb2ffc419.jpg
Here's the bike. I like the headlight and windshield, but I think the rest of the front end needs lots of work. I tried loweringthe handlebars using the stock clip ons, and found them to be not to be easily changeable. I will be looking for a set of adjustable clipons soon. I did lower the front end about 1/2 inch this morning, it mght be possible to lower it a little more without worry. I will be removing the front fairing sometime this week to figgure out how best to mount a better fairing. I will be shaping fiberglass over styrofoam as I have in the past. I think I can keep the bike under 22inches wide, and 8feet long. I'll also be going for light weight. Bulkheads as safety features probably won't work, since ill be riding in a tuck and the tail will only be about 6-8inches high.

sendler 08-17-2014 06:15 PM

How much was the bike? My dealer had 5 left over 2013 CBR250R's that they gave away for $3,400.

sendler 08-18-2014 12:37 PM

It would be nice to keep the iconic headlight of the CBR250R. I am planning on raising the windshield with a carbonate sheet across and under the mirrors and going narrower with some clip on bars. A head forward position with your eyes peeking just over the screen creates a magic blow drier effect which blows any rain right off your face shield.
.
Excellent info from Aerohead shows that Kamming the tail starts a big loss at anything more than 10% of the airfoil length. He has shown that even a very short fineness airfoil is much better than a long airfoil Kammed at 40%. And a round nosed cone with straight sides is fairly poor also compared to even a much shorter airfoil. We need to make room for the license plate. So if I were going to start over and form foam mold for my bike I would shape the side view to match the aero template starting just in front of the front wheel, truncating at the back. And make the top view as a non truncated short airfoil along the bottom of the bike, tapering up to a 9 inch wide Kamm at the top of the tail for added storage, and a place to mount the license plate and rear flush mount led turn signals.

Michael Moore 08-18-2014 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bschloop (Post 440762)
I think I can keep the bike under 22inches wide, and 8feet long.

That seems like it might be a little bit narrow, unless you are planning on a small/slender rider. You don't want bits of rider hanging outside of the bodywork. Plus, a sturdy riding jacket with some padding/armor in the shoulder can add a couple of inches to the shoulder.

cheers,
Michael

sendler 08-18-2014 03:14 PM

Any rider gets a lot narrower in a head forward position if you have narrow handle bars. The foot pegs become the widest part of the bike.

bschloop 08-18-2014 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Moore (Post 440926)
That seems like it might be a little bit narrow, unless you are planning on a small/slender rider. You don't want bits of rider hanging outside of the bodywork. Plus, a sturdy riding jacket with some padding/armor in the shoulder can add a couple of inches to the shoulder.

cheers,
Michael

It helps that I am a very narrow rider at 6' 160#. But most people could fit inside a 24inch wide bike. My first streamliner was only 20inches wide except at the handlebars where it was 24. I could probably have fit into Charley Perethian's rifle streamliner, and it was only 16 inches wide.

Michael Moore 08-18-2014 11:52 PM

You're a more slender person than I, Gunga Din. </Kipling>

:)

cheers,
Michael

bschloop 10-18-2014 01:12 PM

OK, I have been putting off tearing into my new bike since I have been very busy lately, and have wanted to ride as much as possible, but I have finally begun. The first step was to set up an aggressive riding position without completely sacrificing comfort. In order to do this I removed all of the front bodywork and moved the handlebars to knee level. Then I added about three inches of foam padding to the tank. This puts me in a race tuck while keeping weight off my wrists and arms.http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9e0860a6.jpg

sendler 10-18-2014 01:58 PM

Wow! That is going to be radical. I'm going to raise my windscreen a few inches.

bschloop 10-18-2014 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sendler (Post 450854)
I'm going to raise my windscreen a few inches.

How do you plan to raise the windscreen? I thought about doing mine, but it seemed I would have to find or make a whole new screen. I am planning on building out the upper fairing so that it wraps out around my shoulders. I think a stock CBR 250 would benefit from a similar addition. Maybe you could fair in where the handlebar cutouts are. Widening the upper would protect you more in the rain, and you might be able to relocate the mirrors into that area. IMO the skinny windscreen with two gaping holes on either side is a design flaw.

sendler 10-18-2014 04:53 PM

Honda kept the overall body length short which made the need for the cut outs for the bars. I have some clip ons which will make the bars as narrow as possible to reduce the swing. I think a straight sheet could then arc across the front under the mirror mounts. I have found that I can be very comfortable leaning down on a full tank bag but the the stock screen is too short. Ideally you want to peek just over the top to get the magic blow drier vision in the rain.

Grant-53 10-20-2014 02:33 PM

If you and bschloop want to take some photos with you in the saddle, I could work with those to get a good fairing shape for the Honda. Include the tail bag if you would. My project machine is the Honda EliteE but I can scale and adjust the sailplane plans to fit. Knowing where the rider's shoulders are located is key.

bschloop 10-20-2014 07:58 PM

I can try to get a pic or two this weekend. It would be interesting to see what you come up with. I am going for a slightly more mainstream look with this bike though. Which means I will likely leave the front wheel visible. I have begun putting together the foam form for my front fairing and will try to get some pics of that as well.

Grant-53 10-29-2014 04:14 PM

Keeping the front wheel clear of the faring body is doable. I found some images on Google. One for the side view of the standard riding position and a top view. Any reduction in handle bar width is a big plus in this case as it affects the aspect ratio and frontal area. I assume a 3:1 length rather than a long tail is keeping with a more conventional look. Do you want to keep the possibility of a second rider?

bschloop 11-02-2014 08:46 AM

http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/...ps48b0e465.jpg

Here's a sneak peek of the fairing so far.


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