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-   -   Certain subjects are immune to logic? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/certain-subjects-immune-logic-12485.html)

Frank Lee 03-02-2010 12:24 AM

Certain subjects are immune to logic?
 
Like ANWR. It is not possible to use logic when discussing it. Facts and the best available data = not applicable in many people's "minds". What up wid dat? :confused:

Same with population and/or population control. ZING!- fly right past rationality and into emotion on that one. :rolleyes:

Piwoslaw 03-02-2010 02:05 AM

True. True.

Maybe people have certain things hardwired into their brain (or an approximation of it) and one word is enough to start a do loop which they can't get out of. Which they don't even (want to) know they can get out of. The question is: Who (what) brainwashed them into that state?

Are you just ranting, or would you like to discuss those subjects here? I have nothing against, but discussing those two with me probably wouldn't get very far, as I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side.

cfg83 03-02-2010 02:29 AM

Frank and Co -

Yeah, I have repeatedly heard that emotional responses are about 1000 times faster than rational thought. This was useful when we were hunter/gatherers, and needed to respond to imminent danger from predators. But nowadays, the dangers are not what they used to be. For example, consumption :

Emotions in purchase decisions - CopperWiki
Quote:

Emotions in purchase decisions
With the array of similar products with similar features available in modern marketplace, reason alone is insufficient to determine trade-offs between alternative brands. Behind the values that consumers seek to enhance or maintain are past emotional experiences that shape their concerns. Emotions, thus, become crucial in purchase decisions.
Why should I be aware of this?
Everyone feels before they think; the non-rational emotional reaction comes before the more rational secondary one. The consumer finds out about the productís features through reasoning. But without the involvement of emotion, consumers are unable to assign values to those features or alternatives. Consumer reasoning needs to be bolstered with emotion to assign values to available functional alternatives. Without the role of emotion consumers will be unable to make up their minds about which products to buy. Without emotion, consumers suffer from decision paralysis. When values attached to a product are unclear, indecision is the rule.
Successful marketing helps consumers identify with the brand by attaching the values and concerns of the target consumer. Reason compels the consumer to feel the need to buy a product; emotion determines which alternative is bought.

I think the key is self-awareness. I *know* that I respond emotionally and I try to temper it as needed. I like looking at used cars that I *know* will probably be money pits, but I don't care because I like their design for some reason. I research and research. Finally, someone else buys the car and the fever passes.

CarloSW2

Frank Lee 03-02-2010 02:31 AM

An online article about impending gas price increases prompted the usual "drill baby drill" rubbish, and mention of ANWAR (sic) soon followed. I posted:

Quote:

Compared to U.S. consumption, all the oil in ANWR is a mere pittance that doesn't amount to squat. OH, by the way, ANWR doesn't have WAR in it. >:(
Then a fellow came on with the actual data and his post was mysteriously censored away :confused: then I posted:

Quote:

I'll let y'all in on a little well-kept secret:
Oil is a finite resource, human population is expanding exponentially, and energy use per capita is also expanding. Do the math.
In that forum people vote yay or nay if they approve of posts. Both of my posts are running about 3:1 nay:yay. Sure the second post could be debateable, but the first one??? The majority opposes the best available facts, data, and evidence?

People: they cease to amaze me. :rolleyes:

Frank Lee 03-02-2010 02:40 AM

Carlos: perhaps I'm wired differently. Actually, I've felt that way all my life. It's like an outsider looking in. Like Spock. :confused:

I like to approach things rationally more than emotionally. Evidently that's unusual.

Heh, like your story about the used cars. I've been getting old and of questionable worthiness vehicles off Craig'slist lately. I guess it is a mix of logic/emotion: I evaluate what I can pre-purchase, mentally calculate how expensive parts will be, then gamble a bit and buy the P.O.S. with the feeling that I can handle it all and stay within/below budget.

But I wasn't thinking of any purchasing process when I started the thread. Although that's legit to discuss i.e. why choose an SUV or a Prius or whatever.

Bicycle Bob 03-02-2010 02:59 AM

One time, in a letter to the editor, I referred to Limited Liability Corporations as "the Amoral Immortals." The editor picket this up for the header, and most of my radical friends jumped on me for being 'way too critical. It was just a plain fact, easily derived from the charters. "Immoral" would have been a slur, even though companies are clearly required to lie and break or circumvent laws wherever there is opportunity for profit.

vtec-e 03-02-2010 05:51 AM

Tire pressure vs traction springs to mind. It seems that in the entire world, there is no conclusive data to show this. An exception are the NHTSA documents but they only go to 32 psi or thereabouts. Assumptions are all we have beyond that.

Any time i have brought this subject up outside of Ecomodder i have been met with hostility and derision. What should have been an intelligent discussion turned into name calling etc.
I got an acute sense of being surrounded by schoolyard bullies/thought police and more or less told to go away. Even by supposedly intelligent people.
As Frank said:
Quote:

People: they cease to amaze me.
Very true.

ollie

Piwoslaw 03-02-2010 06:34 AM

I recently read this:
Quote:

Maybe they and we descended from different monkeys?

almightybmw 03-02-2010 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piwoslaw (Post 163792)
I recently read this:
Quote:

Maybe they and we descended from different monkeys?

where's my digital watch?

tim3058 03-02-2010 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Lee (Post 163777)
Quote:
Compared to U.S. consumption, all the oil in ANWR is a mere pittance that doesn't amount to squat. OH, by the way, ANWR doesn't have WAR in it. >

In that forum people vote yay or nay if they approve of posts. Both of my posts are running about 3:1 nay:yay. Sure the second post could be debateable, but the first one??? The majority opposes the best available facts, data, and evidence?

People: they cease to amaze me. :rolleyes:

Not knowing much about ANWR I searched it on Ixquick. Just to educate myself about the facts. The Dept. of Energy has a report out on ANWR, it was the first link on ixquick http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicer...af(2008)03.pdf

Page #9 has a graph worth looking at, ANWR is at least an appreciable increase in domestic production. Below the graph the DOE concludes:

The opening of ANWR to oil and gas development includes the following impacts:
• reducing world oil prices,
• reducing the U.S. dependence on imported foreign oil,
• improving the U.S. balance of trade,
•extending the life of TAPS [current alaskan pipeline] for oil, and
•increasing U.S. jobs.


I would assume the DOE has the best available facts at their disposal. Others may just have discovered this report before I did.


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