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-   -   Chrysler Airflow and it's aerodynamics (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/chrysler-airflow-its-aerodynamics-39261.html)

aerohead 04-02-2021 03:06 PM

Chrysler Airflow and it's aerodynamics
 
This video covers this ground-breaking design. Cd 0.51, vs Cd 0.66 for the cars it replaced.
The DeSoto Airflow aerodynamic test mule, not shown, achieved Cd 0.244 as a 'long-tail.'
An SAE Paper was published finally, four months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. We've already discussed that elsewhere here at EcoModder.com.
https://www.curbside.tv/blog/2018/8/...rysler-airflow

JulianEdgar 04-02-2021 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 645335)
This video covers this ground-breaking design. Cd 0.51, vs Cd 0.66 for the cars it replaced.
The DeSoto Airflow aerodynamic test mule, not shown, achieved Cd 0.244 as a 'long-tail.'
An SAE Paper was published finally, four months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. We've already discussed that elsewhere here at EcoModder.com.
https://www.curbside.tv/blog/2018/8/...rysler-airflow

I don't think the paper you mention cites the Airflow, does it?

(Edit: I am wrong, it does.)

aerohead 04-02-2021 04:50 PM

paper
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar (Post 645344)
I don't think the paper you mention cites the Airflow, does it?

Zeder's paper, to my recollection, covered the R&D of the DeSoto Airflow sedan aerodynamic test mule, which pushed the boundaries of the Airflow's streamlining. A quarter-view is shown, plus a schematic representation.
In AUTOMOBILE QUARTERLY, a more proper side elevation view is presented, illustrating the stinger and belly pan.
The United States entered the war and folks had more on their minds than aerodynamics I suppose.
I didn't know anything about any of it until not so many years ago. Alex Tremulis was the first to write about it, that I was able to run across. At his home, his models, scattered about, reflected the elongation and boat-tailing reflected in his Tucker and Ford Advanced Styling, Gyronaut LSR motorcycle, and later Subaru projects. Nice guy. Miss him.

JulianEdgar 04-03-2021 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 645347)
Zeder's paper, to my recollection, covered the R&D of the DeSoto Airflow sedan aerodynamic test mule, which pushed the boundaries of the Airflow's streamlining. A quarter-view is shown, plus a schematic representation.

I went and looked again. The paper is: "Is It Practical to STREAMLINE
for FUEL ECONOMY?", SAE 410139.

Drag coefficients are shown as 'K', which is in lb sq feet (mph)^2 - eg a De Soto Airflow is listed at K = 0.00140. Does anyone know how that could be converted to Cd?

[This equation is wrongly cited by me. I correct it later in the thread.]

The shapes that are shown are very generic.

When I was working on the section on the Airflow in my upcoming book I glanced through the paper and then discarded it. A second look hasn't told me a whole lot more!

Reading the paper, and reflecting on the quotes attributed to Chrysler at the time, I think that they had no idea of what had been going on in car aero in Germany over the previous decade or so.

Piotrsko 04-03-2021 09:25 AM

The racing aircraft people are always talking about flat plate square foot area, so my guess is that this is the square foot equivalent. I'm not sure if the advanced people go from there to drag as my eyes glaze over (squirrel!!) this point.

jakobnev 04-04-2021 04:41 AM

Quote:

Drag coefficients are shown as 'K', which is in lb sq feet (mph)^2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hid7EJkwDNk

aerohead 04-07-2021 03:23 PM

converted
 
Alex Tremulis did the conversions from aeronautical, to frontal area-based coefficients.

JulianEdgar 04-07-2021 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 645641)
Alex Tremulis did the conversions from aeronautical, to frontal area-based coefficients.

You don't know the maths?

aerohead 04-07-2021 05:13 PM

maths
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar (Post 645652)
You don't know the maths?

I did do the calcs. All flavors. I'm not comfortable otherwise. There hasn't been 100% consensus between aeronautical engineers on flat-plate coefficients, so that's been problematic.
Larry Mauro, one of three aeronautical engineers I know, uses 1.0/ sq-ft, designing airplanes. Glynn B. used 1.15 at NASA, as was used in Fluid Mechanics we took at Texas Tech. Chris is a supersonic aeronautical guy and doesn't use 'em at all. Some, at the time of Zeder's paper were using Cd 1.0. Some were using Cd 1.15. Since Alex lived in both worlds, I figured I'd just defer to him. Alex also helped with Alexander Gustave Eiffel's coefficients. I'm certain that his calculus was way better than mine.

JulianEdgar 04-07-2021 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerohead (Post 645656)
I did do the calcs. All flavors. I'm not comfortable otherwise. There hasn't been 100% consensus between aeronautical engineers on flat-plate coefficients, so that's been problematic.
Larry Mauro, one of three aeronautical engineers I know, uses 1.0/ sq-ft, designing airplanes. Glynn B. used 1.15 at NASA, as was used in Fluid Mechanics we took at Texas Tech. Chris is a supersonic aeronautical guy and doesn't use 'em at all. Some, at the time of Zeder's paper were using Cd 1.0. Some were using Cd 1.15. Since Alex lived in both worlds, I figured I'd just defer to him. Alex also helped with Alexander Gustave Eiffel's coefficients. I'm certain that his calculus was way better than mine.

I don't understand. The K value doesn't appear to have thing to do with Cd for flat plates.

"Drag coefficients are shown as 'K', which is in lb sq feet (mph)^2"

Why aren't they talking of the frontal area of the car? ie lbs drag per square foot of frontal area * (mph)^2.

I am no mathematician but I would have thought the conversion of that to Cd would be fairly straightforward.


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